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Old 02-08-2019, 02:54 AM   #1
StacknLikeCordWood
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JJ 3bet from BB

1/3 NL. Hero starts hand with $400, which is effective stack.

CO limp, button raise to 21, SB call, Hero in BB makes it 75 w/ JhJc, limper calls, button and SB fold.

CO is young Asian guy that got moved to our table ~1hr ago with a $550ish stack. Has played tight over the hour, only limping a couple times and folding postflop. No other history.

Flop 5d 7h 8d. Hero bets 75, villain calls.

Turn 6h. Are we ahead of enough of villain's range to jam 250 here and try to charge the max vs AKdd and AKhh? Or should we check/evaluate? On the spot, I was ranging villain on something like TT-QQ, AK, maybe 99, but not sure. The limp, call 75 pre from CO is odd. Feels like AA/KK should be heavily discounted. Thoughts on other decision points welcome as well.
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Old 02-08-2019, 05:45 AM   #2
ChrisV
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Re: JJ 3bet from BB

Threebet is very small, I'd make it maybe 90-100. Worked out well though.

In my experience these limp/cold call 4bet hands are most often small-medium pairs. Generally the players have no idea how to calculate odds of hitting sets/implied odds/etc. They just love hitting sets, because you win huge pots, so they call and try to hit one basically regardless of price.

That's a gross turn, I'd just x/f. You still beat some of his range but it's not going to be 30% of it or whatever it is you need. Your equity is just going to be too bad because you're drawing dead or slim too often. AKdd is like 40% against you for example, while you're a huge dog to a large number of hands.
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Old 02-08-2019, 06:04 AM   #3
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Re: JJ 3bet from BB

I can't take limper off of pA's sp'ing due to 3bet already in. First in co w AK not pfr'ing - that I'm taking him off of.

Really this looks like pA's or his "favorite hand". What else makes sense? Small pp's aren't limp calling a 3bet, or shouldn't. p9's maybe I guess that didn't pfr, maybe. Maybe he was looking to limp 3bet TT+ but when 3bet came in he has decided to check-call down.

He's played tight so maybe he isn't a "favorite hand" kind of guy. At this point you can only beat pT's.
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Old 02-08-2019, 06:32 AM   #4
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Re: JJ 3bet from BB

Pre sizing and flop sizing are very bad and way too small

turn just jam, not a great spot but he can just check behind a lot of his draws and plus your line might look like bs when you jam here w/ double flush draw and with you betting so small otf
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Old 02-08-2019, 08:04 AM   #5
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Re: JJ 3bet from BB

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Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
turn just jam, not a great spot but he can just check behind a lot of his draws
Eh? If he does that you want to x/f ainec.
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Old 02-08-2019, 10:35 AM   #6
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Re: JJ 3bet from BB

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Originally Posted by ChrisV View Post
Threebet is very small, I'd make it maybe 90-100. Worked out well though.

In my experience these limp/cold call 4bet hands are most often small-medium pairs. Generally the players have no idea how to calculate odds of hitting sets/implied odds/etc. They just love hitting sets, because you win huge pots, so they call and try to hit one basically regardless of price.

That's a gross turn, I'd just x/f. You still beat some of his range but it's not going to be 30% of it or whatever it is you need. Your equity is just going to be too bad because you're drawing dead or slim too often. AKdd is like 40% against you for example, while you're a huge dog to a large number of hands.
+1
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Old 02-08-2019, 10:41 AM   #7
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Re: JJ 3bet from BB

STacknLike, you should actually have $300 left, not $250.

Minatorr, V's range has to be mostly small to medium pairs, and some weaker suited suited connectors and suited Aces. Were just not doing great vs. this range on this turn. Second, he describe V as tight/passive. If he's going to check back is draws or one pair hands and bet strong hands, perfect spot to check.
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Old 02-08-2019, 11:58 AM   #8
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Re: JJ 3bet from BB

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STacknLike, you should actually have $300 left, not $250.

Minatorr, V's range has to be mostly small to medium pairs, and some weaker suited suited connectors and suited Aces. Were just not doing great vs. this range on this turn. Second, he describe V as tight/passive. If he's going to check back is draws or one pair hands and bet strong hands, perfect spot to check.
This sounds right to me, except I get $250 ($400 - $150).
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Old 02-08-2019, 12:52 PM   #9
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Re: JJ 3bet from BB

I mostly just flat preflop at these non-shortstack depths with relatively little dead money in the pot. But I'm passive like that.

Next time post stack sizes on each street so we don't have to do the math. Looks like pot is $190 with just $325 behind, so as much as I'm a little worried about a limp/coldcall (this should really only be a monster if villain is anywhere remotely competent), I think we're committed. So I just PSB this drawy flop to shove the rest in on the turn.

What do we have left, like a 2/3 PSB left? I'm not sure a check is going to induce a bluff enough of the time so we mostly just give a boatload of free cards when committed. So I just ship it to protect my equity.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 02-08-2019, 12:54 PM   #10
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Re: JJ 3bet from BB

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Originally Posted by Javanewt View Post
This sounds right to me, except I get $250 ($400 - $150).
Oops yea your right
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Old 02-08-2019, 01:01 PM   #11
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Re: JJ 3bet from BB

Chech turn. Terrible card for your range. V should check back.
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Old 02-08-2019, 02:16 PM   #12
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Re: JJ 3bet from BB

Check/fold turn. I concur with ChrisV. Probably this is mostly pocket pairs TT and below and when he continues flop he has a set or pair+draw a lot of the time. Turn makes the gutshot straight draw with 99 and gives the open-ended straight draw with 66 a set.

Sometimes people do this with their favourite suited connectors - and they all hit the flop and turn for 2-pair and straights.

Also concur with others that AK and similar mostly raise preflop and that having V check behind on turn with his draws is fantastic for us - allowing us to costlessly X/F turn.
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Old 02-08-2019, 02:38 PM   #13
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Re: JJ 3bet from BB

Checking turn is fine when we aren't committed. But we committed ourselves preflop when flopping an overpair, so with just 2/3 PSB we should just continue to commit; allowing free cards in a committed spot is not a fantastic result.

GimoG
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Old 02-08-2019, 03:15 PM   #14
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Re: JJ 3bet from BB

^How are we committed with a 3/4 (not 2/3, unless I have failed twice at counting the pot) PSB left on possibly one of the worst boards given Hero/V's range here? Also, he's described as tight/passive, so what a great spot to check and let V tell us what he has.
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Old 02-08-2019, 03:32 PM   #15
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Re: JJ 3bet from BB

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisV View Post
Eh? If he does that you want to x/f ainec.
We can get called by worse and if he checks behind his draws then with both of these assumptions it’s not “xf ainec”

His range for calling 1/3 here is way wider than if we bet normally sized (with polarized range), which is what we should be doing since 1/3 makes zero sense here. That said, vs a wider range than normal, jam seems fine. Plus vs our small sizing a lot of ppl will raise sets/two pair at some freq and even draws, so this may weight him towards weaker hands when he calls or hands w/ sdv
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Old 02-08-2019, 03:33 PM   #16
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Re: JJ 3bet from BB

At this point it isn't really a question of letting him tell us what he has; it's about not letting him suck out in a huge pot when committed.

OP didn't do the math for us so I'm not exactly sure what we have left. But either way, we have < PSB left (should even be much less had we bet more appropriately on the flop) and we committed ourselves preflop with the 3bet to setup an SPR << 2 pot flopping an overpair. Checking to possibly get drawn out on in these spots is pretty meh, imo. ETA: And as mentioned, we can even still get called by worse at this point.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 02-08-2019, 04:06 PM   #17
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Re: JJ 3bet from BB

The one time gg gets aggressive, and I disagree with him. This is about the worst run-out we can get. He seems tight and passive. If he's playing hands that are going to suckout on us on the river, I think he's already sucked out. He's never folding better, and there are plenty of "safe" rivers, too, if he is still drawing.
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Old 02-08-2019, 04:11 PM   #18
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Re: JJ 3bet from BB

I agree with flop shove, but as played I don't understand why you think we have a range advantage here? Our range is getting smashed on turn. If that is the case, betting for "protection" should be bleeding money especially against a tight/passive.

Against this tight V's range, we literally only beat a handful of front door flush draws. We are behind against sets, straights (lots of these with pp's, suited connectors, AXs), and two pairs.
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Old 02-08-2019, 04:56 PM   #19
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Re: JJ 3bet from BB

And LOL at a tight player calling on the turn with worse.
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Old 02-08-2019, 05:23 PM   #20
gobbledygeek
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Re: JJ 3bet from BB

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Originally Posted by 23LBJ23 View Post
I agree with flop shove, but as played I don't understand why you think we have a range advantage here? Our range is getting smashed on turn. If that is the case, betting for "protection" should be bleeding money especially against a tight/passive.

Against this tight V's range, we literally only beat a handful of front door flush draws. We are behind against sets, straights (lots of these with pp's, suited connectors, AXs), and two pairs.
If this guy called off ~20% of his stack to ~setmine against us in an SPR < 2 pot or called the flop with a gutshot with lol behind, nice hand sir, here's my stack. We should never be folding postflop with our overpair, so the only real mistake we can make at this point is letting him get there for free during the times he has worse.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 02-08-2019, 05:28 PM   #21
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Re: JJ 3bet from BB

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Originally Posted by Javanewt View Post
And LOL at a tight player calling on the turn with worse.
It's rather moot whether he does or not (our bet is simply to prevent a mistake of letting him get there with worse for free), but it's still possible he calls it off with TT (overpair + gutshot) or flush draw (which is often overs + flush draw).

Yes, we often run into better (nice hand sir), but there's nothing much else we should be doing at this point (plus we can suck out on some hands).

Everyone is playing this pot postflop as if we flatted the raise preflop. But we didn't, for better or worse we 3bet, and now postflop should be a trivial large bet / ship the rest, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 02-08-2019, 05:30 PM   #22
StacknLikeCordWood
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Re: JJ 3bet from BB

Apologies to everyone for forgetting to include pot size.

Hero starts hand with 400, villain covers.

Flop: Pot is 192, Hero bet 75 leaving 250 behind.

Turn: Pot is 342, Hero has 250 behind.
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Old 02-08-2019, 05:49 PM   #23
StacknLikeCordWood
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Re: JJ 3bet from BB

To reply to some of the comments on my flop sizing:

My player pool is incredibly passive. It's common to see players limp/call with AK or QQ. Most of these players are willing to call significant money pre with AK/AQ/AJ/KQs/QJs/etc. and then play fit or fold post. I have been 3betting a range something like pps down to 88 or 77, AK, AQ, KQ, (sometimes wider) and betting 1/3 pot on every heads up flop with my entire range. But this particular villain is relatively unknown (lol 1 hour sample size of his play) so maybe the population read shouldn't apply until we have more info, although his 1 hour of play we've observed would seem to fit the profile. I gave him a stronger range in OP because of the sizing pre, a 75 dollar bet pre in my game is rather rare, and I think a lot of villains are going to continue somewhat tighter because of it.
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Old 02-08-2019, 06:04 PM   #24
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Re: JJ 3bet from BB

Pre and flop sizes are bad and should be more. If flop is a bet at all.
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Old 02-08-2019, 07:08 PM   #25
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Re: JJ 3bet from BB

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
It's rather moot whether he does or not (our bet is simply to prevent a mistake of letting him get there with worse for free), but it's still possible he calls it off with TT (overpair + gutshot) or flush draw (which is often overs + flush draw).

Yes, we often run into better (nice hand sir), but there's nothing much else we should be doing at this point (plus we can suck out on some hands).

Everyone is playing this pot postflop as if we flatted the raise preflop. But we didn't, for better or worse we 3bet, and now postflop should be a trivial large bet / ship the rest, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG
Thanks for your excellent points. I'm still hung up on V's range and the story V is telling. With what range does V overcall (with two players incl. SB raiser still behind him preflop) and then flat this flop?

Is he overcalling QQ-TT here? QQ/JJ I dont think so; maybe V decides to setmine with TT. Looks like suited connectors and preflop overcall suggests V wants action from 2 other Vs and H.

What is he's flatting flop with? High-confidence range is 99/66 and suited connector combos with a straight draw and possibly flush draw. I cannot see suited one-gappers here given the huge overcall. Maybe he's flatting/eval TT on this flop. (I don't think he would have limped/overcalled AA/KK/AKs/AQs.)

H indeed should bet flop bigger I think. He has nearly given straight pot odds to many drawing hands. But I recommend a passive line on turn and hope river bricks. But 6h turn is a terrible card for H.

I think H is behind V's range so I just can't find a shove here at all. We have limited FE and we're maybe drawing dead. But I can find some x/c here at pot odds.

What rivers will H be happy with? Likely any K or Q, 3Js, 4 2's, 3's - so maybe 19/46. So I would x hoping V offers me these type river odds with his turn bet. Of course, H will still have to make hero call on river to thinking V's likely aggression. He could probably only lead with a river J.
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