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Old 03-07-2020, 10:54 AM   #1
FiveDollaYo
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JJ for 3 Streets of Value?

1/3 NL at MD Live, 8 handed

V1 ($330) - No real reads except he's not a complete mouth breather.
V2 ($160) - Just sat down a few hands ago and bought in short for $100. 3-bet jammed over a bunch of limps and an open on the very first hand. Took it down all the dead money after everyone folded.

OTTH

UTG limps, Hero makes it $20 with JdJc, V1 calls from HJ, V2 calls from button, UTG folds.

Flop ($60ish) - 10 9 4 rainbow

Hero bets $45, both call.

Turn ($195) is 3s, bringing a bdfd in. Hero bets $115, both Call (V2 all in for a little less)

River - Qd

Hero ??? Input on all streets appreciated
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Old 03-07-2020, 11:05 AM   #2
sixsevenoff
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Re: JJ for 3 Streets of Value?

I would go a little smaller otf.

I just x river. A lot of times I'll b/f oop on run outs like this, but we're protected against bluffing because of V2s all in, and we can't get value from much worse, if anything.
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Old 03-09-2020, 02:41 AM   #3
jdr0317
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Re: JJ for 3 Streets of Value?

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Originally Posted by sixsevenoff View Post
I would go a little smaller otf.

I just x river. A lot of times I'll b/f oop on run outs like this, but we're protected against bluffing because of V2s all in, and we can't get value from much worse, if anything.

The one thing that scares me is that Iíve seen so many players that I thought were at least not brain dead make bluffs into non existent side pots.

I think we are far enough down in our range, given how rare he should be bluffing (if he was, it should be with a hand like T8 in the hope that he can promote his hand to the winner) that we can just fold to a bet.


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Old 03-09-2020, 09:56 AM   #4
PROPOSITION_JOE
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Re: JJ for 3 Streets of Value?

flop is too big for sure.

Turn as played is fine.

River is a bit close. Our JJ's are blocking a lot - we block value (QJ, J8 (if he calls with this), but his best non made hand is QJ (esp with clubs) also, which now beats us.

I think its an easy check and hope we make showdown. If we get jammed on for his last $150 i think its a sigh call given we block straights and his QJ. I expect a lot of A10/K10 type hands, i think 109 no clubs raises turn for protection

not happy about getting more money into this pot.
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Old 03-09-2020, 10:33 AM   #5
moxiepilot
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Re: JJ for 3 Streets of Value?

X river, only better is calling.
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Old 03-09-2020, 10:41 AM   #6
Javanewt
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Re: JJ for 3 Streets of Value?

I'm fine with the bet on the flop vs. two players. Turn is good. River is a check/decide. It really is read dependent. Not enough left to bet/fold.
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Old 03-09-2020, 11:55 AM   #7
Lapidator
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Re: JJ for 3 Streets of Value?

Hand seems fine to me.

Flop bet sizing is good. I don't understand why anyone thinks smaller is better.

Given the short stack (he's not going anywhere), I might just shove the turn and let V1 fold whatever equity he might have.

With no reads, x/c OTR as played.
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Old 03-09-2020, 12:20 PM   #8
PROPOSITION_JOE
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Re: JJ for 3 Streets of Value?

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Originally Posted by Lapidator View Post
Hand seems fine to me.

Flop bet sizing is good. I don't understand why anyone thinks smaller is better.

Given the short stack (he's not going anywhere), I might just shove the turn and let V1 fold whatever equity he might have.

With no reads, x/c OTR as played.
we still hold a range advantage, we hold all the overpairs and all sets. Villains rarely hold overpairs and dont always have 1010, 99, clearly can have 44. calling ranges will have number of suited broadways, suited connectors, they have 109 for sure but little else in terms of 2 pair combos. I dunno, is this board dry enough to bet smaller and just bet our range? Position-wise it sucks we are first to act multiway.
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Old 03-09-2020, 12:22 PM   #9
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Re: JJ for 3 Streets of Value?

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we still hold a range advantage, we hold all the overpairs and all sets. Villains rarely hold overpairs and dont always have 1010, 99, clearly can have 44. calling ranges will have number of suited broadways, suited connectors, they have 109 for sure but little else in terms of 2 pair combos. I dunno, is this board dry enough to bet smaller and just bet our range? Position-wise it sucks we are first to act multiway.
Is this supposed to explain why betting smaller OTF is better?

You think Vs are going to fold to $45?
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Old 03-09-2020, 01:33 PM   #10
PROPOSITION_JOE
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Re: JJ for 3 Streets of Value?

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Is this supposed to explain why betting smaller OTF is better?

You think Vs are going to fold to $45?
You're talking about betting selectively on this flop then - i did actually pose the question how we'd want to approach this - you wouldnt be bashing $45 everytime you have AKo,AQs with no backdoors/ 88,77 etc surely?

betting our range for $45 is obviously just bad.
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Old 03-09-2020, 01:38 PM   #11
gobbledygeek
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Re: JJ for 3 Streets of Value?

OOP I just limp in to evaluate (mostly to reraise but it depends on raiser / stacks / dead money / etc.).

Preflop has setup an SPR 5 spot where anyone can easily commit us, especially thanks to being OOP, and meanwhile we gave the bigger stack fairly decent 18:1 IO to see a flop. It's a meh spot. So while I probably feel committed against the shorter stack, I don't against the deeper one. So I would probably bet a lot smaller on the flop (say $25) and then evaluate who does what. A bigger bet gets us much more down the uncomfortable commitment road against the deeper stack.

Turn is a stoopid spot, but I think I'd bet the shortstack all-in of $95 as the last money I'm putting in the pot (especially if the shortstack does go all-in and thus protect the pot).

I'd mostly check/fold the river as played (although I can't recall how much we have behind, we might be committed). It's highly unlikely a bet will be a bluff in this protected pot and no one bets second pair here.

Gsetupbetterspotspreflop,imoG
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Old 03-09-2020, 01:44 PM   #12
gobbledygeek
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Re: JJ for 3 Streets of Value?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lapidator View Post
You think Vs are going to fold to $45?
I agree that I don't think there is any difference whatsover in what villains call with facing ~$25 versus $45 here. Heck, if I felt committed I'd be PSBing for the exact same reasons.

But I'm simply more concerned with accidentally committing myself here against the bigger stack OOP. A small bet helps somewhat in preventing that plus gives me time to figure out things before necessarily getting myself into that spot.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 03-09-2020, 03:33 PM   #13
Lapidator
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Re: JJ for 3 Streets of Value?

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Originally Posted by PROPOSITION_JOE View Post
You're talking about betting selectively on this flop then - i did actually pose the question how we'd want to approach this - you wouldnt be bashing $45 everytime you have AKo,AQs with no backdoors/ 88,77 etc surely?

betting our range for $45 is obviously just bad.
We have no history and no reads vs. our villains. There's no need to balance anything here.

Quote:
V1 ($330) - No real reads except he's not a complete mouth breather.
V2 ($160) - Just sat down a few hands ago and bought in short for $100. 3-bet jammed over a bunch of limps and an open on the very first hand. Took it down all the dead money after everyone folded.
We have value now, bet it for value.
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Old 03-09-2020, 07:51 PM   #14
PROPOSITION_JOE
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Re: JJ for 3 Streets of Value?

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Originally Posted by Lapidator View Post
We have no history and no reads vs. our villains. There's no need to balance anything here.



We have value now, bet it for value.
Strictly speaking being readless is the reason for balance. Without reads what is there to exploit? I took "not being a mouth breather" as someone to not exclusively bet when we connect and check when we miss. But I was looking primarily from board texture and position anyway - whether this is a flop we can go smaller and unselectively with our whole range?
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Old 03-09-2020, 08:49 PM   #15
Lapidator
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Re: JJ for 3 Streets of Value?

We only need to be balanced against V who are trying to figure us out, and are paying enough attention to attempt it.

The average LLSNL v can barely figure out his own hand.
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