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Old 03-29-2014, 09:15 AM   #1
gotwoot
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JJ @ $1/2 NL

Game is playing like a typical loose-passive $1/2 lots of limping/calling very little 3b,. Hero has history with all villains. We've been at the table for about 45 minutes and are up about $70. A couple of opens/cbets one 3b but no SD yet.

Villain 1 (UTG+1): 60 y/o typical loose-passive fish. Only really opens AJ+, KJ+ and 1010+ for a raise, but limps/calls with lots of hands like trashy aces, suited Ks/Qs, suited/offsuit connectors & gappers, all PPs "hoping to hit". Usually cbets after opening, but often shuts down unimproved. $150

Villain 2 (UTG+2): 30 y/o TAG. Plays mostly ABC, but is capable of making some moves too. Doesn't open or 3b too wide, but will call wide IP and valuetown weaksauce villains when he makes hands. $800.

Villain 3 (SB): 30 y/o bad LAG. Opens/calls wide IP and waaay too wide oop, will bet all draws, can get sticky with TP type hands, very capable of running big bluffs. $250.

Hero (BTN): 30 y/o active. I play nitty oop, and laggy IP. IP, I open very wide and 3b frequently, take unconventional lines, bluff when the opportunity calls for it. V2 is probably the only one who I would give credit for noticing and adjusting. $275.

OTTH:

V1 opens for $10
V2 calls
all fold to Hero who looks at JJ and calls
V3 calls
BB folds

Flop ($42)

827

V3 checks
V1 bets $20
V2 calls
Hero calls $20

I think anything but calling is non-sensical here.

V1 is still on AJ+ and 1010+. We will be able to narrow his range on the turn/if V3 c/rs.

V2 is very wide. Mostly 8x, 99/TT, 56, 9T, J9, 7x, xx. Being that it's 4-ways, he could have a set or 87, but that's a pretty big parlay.

V3 calls

Turn ($122)

7

V3 is about to check, and I am assuming he noticed V1 grabbing chips (as I did) and then bets $15 (wtf?)
V1 calls $15 (wtf?)
V2 calls $15 (WHAT. THE. ****.)

Hero?

This is weird. The only hands that make sense for V3 are 56/9T, 7x and xx. V1 is only AJ+, KJ+ and 1010+. V2 is basically all the same as flop.

Again I feel like anything but calling is non-sensical. I am preparing to call to showdown on blank rivers depending on what villains do. Problem is how many "blank" rivers are there? I feel like any and we're done. Overcards are "ok" but we're not in love. 4/5/6/9 isn't great either. Not to mention we could be behind in two spots and looking for 2 outs. J one time?

Thoughts on all streets appreciated.

Last edited by gotwoot; 03-29-2014 at 09:24 AM.
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Old 03-29-2014, 09:47 AM   #2
stran
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Re: JJ @ $1/2 NL

I would have raised to $30-$40 preflop. I'm guessing that would get you hu v. V1 and you're ahead of his range and in position.

I also would have raised the flop to $60 hoping that ends the hand. If not I would probably have been ready to fold any normal turn bet. For $15 you have to take the chance of hitting your set on the river. I'd give the bad lag V3 credit for having stumbled into trip 7s on the turn and not fire a big turn bet. Also there is still a decent chance I'm way behind V1 & V2.
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Old 03-29-2014, 10:53 AM   #3
bananapeel
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Re: JJ @ $1/2 NL

I can't decide whether the $15 is a standard fishy blocker, or he's made trips, very plausible with his style of play. Your turn range for him looks good. I would really feel I'm ahead of the other two once they both just peel.

Gross, but I think I'm call/folding to river bet a lot here.

Based on what you said about V1 being a regular c-bettor then shutting down, I 3x the flop.
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Old 03-29-2014, 11:23 AM   #4
AbqDave
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Re: JJ @ $1/2 NL

I dunno. I think if any of these guys had trips they would be bombing it to price out the draws. I agree, all you can do is call and see what happens.

I think the question if raising pre is interesting but not a slam dunk.

Pro:
1. You're almost certainly ahead of everyone except V1, and ahead of most of his range anyway.

Con:
1. You don't have to buy th initiative; your call otb is enough.

The unknown is the extent to which there is any hope you can thin the field with a 3b. You don't want to be multiway with JJ and frankly I think being multiway in a bloated pot just makes it worse.

There's a whole lot of controversy about whether JJ can or should be played like a medium pocket pair. Danged if I know. Would be interested to hear more about op's thoughts here.
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Old 03-29-2014, 04:52 PM   #5
cheesefist
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Re: JJ @ $1/2 NL

I'm pretty much always making it $40 pf for value. You are way ahead of V1's betting range and V2s flatting range. Decent chance to take the pot down or get it heads up, which makes JJ a lot simpler to play.

As played, is V1 always cbetting flop w/everything here, even air, into 4 players? If so, I want to raise here, as this board misses his range of mostly broadway cards as you describe it, and V2 flatting is almost certainly a weak hand or a draw.
I make it $60 on the flop.

As played on turn, I dunno, with everyone still in I guess I just flat, but I don't like getting to this spot.
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Old 03-29-2014, 06:51 PM   #6
DrChesspain
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Re: JJ @ $1/2 NL

Quote:
Originally Posted by stran View Post
I would have raised to $30-$40 preflop. I'm guessing that would get you hu v. V1 and you're ahead of his range and in position.
JJ is essentially a coin-flop against the V1's range as given, and I would further assume that JJ is behind V1's calling range, unless V1 calls 3bets as wide as he limp-calls (highly unlikely).
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Old 03-29-2014, 09:24 PM   #7
ashes to ashes
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3! Pre
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Old 03-30-2014, 10:18 AM   #8
gotwoot
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Re: JJ @ $1/2 NL

Thanks for all the replies fellas.

This hand happened on a night where I was absolutely not playing my A-Game. I dunno, some nights you just know you don't have it...

Anyhow, here's my thinking on JJ:

I said I was active IP and I 3b frequently. JJ is sort of in a grey area part of my 3b range because I feel like 3b accomplishes very little (vs. say 3b KJ+ and AJ+). I feel like it essentially gives my opponents the opportunity to play perfectly against me; I give them the opportunity to get away from hands I beat (22-TT/A10-AJ) and I am unnecessarily bloating pots when I am beat (QQ+). That doesn't mean that I never 3b JJ, just that I get a lot more value from it by flatting and therefore I flat more often than I 3b. So, I choose not to 3b in this spot because I am flipping with V1's range, I am otb and I have a hand with showdown value.

As fishy as V1 is, I hardly suspect that he'll ever fold to a 3b after opening so it essentially changes nothing and we are still flipping against his range. I know am going to have a hard time getting him to go broke with worse, and I will basically have to play in "showdown" mode on like 75% of flops. In retrospect, had I considered how wide V3's calling range was, 3b would have made the hand much easier to play, but again I said I was not on my A-game.

So I flat.

River ($182)

4

V3 bets $100
V1 starts bitching and complaining and reluctantly folds but asks the dealer to keep his cards on the side (ok, you have AA)
V2 says wow I can't believe I missed all of that (9T?) and folds

Hero...?

I hate my life. Getting a pretty good price @ 2.8:1 vs. someone we know is prone to run bluffs, but not smart enough to figure out how often we need to be good here vs. a range of say xx, 56, T9, 7x. Secondly, would he do this into 3 other people with air?
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