Sauhund - I agree that sometimes we need to be betting/raising hands that are not the nuts to get value. But circumstances dictate. What can he have to call.

I've played live for several years and noticed many different styles. I've played with many donkeys and I believe the op would not be posting if this guy was totally clueless.

Most players I play with no matter how bad like to think they know what they are doing and those players tend to like to read hands and work out situations. A lot of times though they get it wrong. But still they have some ability of reading hands and usually follow set rules that are sometimes incorrect.

These are the type that when you raise pre they put you on AK. When you show a bluff your always bluffing. When your card dead your a nit. When you raise three in a row your loose. When reading hands they think people are always 'flushing'. When they have KJ on jack high board they think we are betting/calling three streets always with QJ.

Now I've wrote all that nonsense just to explain that when hero raised the turn villain rarely thinks his eight is good. And if hero raises the river he'll often put villain on the nuts. He might still call but there's not a great deal out there which he'll call with.

I'm never folding though.

He would play this exactly the same way with a naked 8 or a flush draw. I can't see him calling on the turn with 2 pair. It is fairly difficult, as played, for him to have a flush or a full house. I think I have to shove for value and expect to get called. It would be massively read dependent.

Flush with a pair on the turn would only be possible with the 9c in the V's hand (not impossible, but fairly unlikely).

Good hand. Could be played lots of ways, as is exemplified from all the opinions in the thread My thoughts...

Pre flop - could raise or call
Flop - i like the call to get others in as well. Raise could be argued to snipe it right here, but I think you make more $$$ calling.

turn - this is the turning point of this hand IMO. Both calling and raising have merits. Your reasoning for raising is fine (you mentioned it was a combo of V's tendency to play aggro and wide and a general tendency of players to fold tot his type of raise). 2 things though, the sizing is too big (as many have talked about) BUT the other thing is that I think we make more $$$ by calling here. So...if we raise here we are looking for our fold equity to kick in and get pot right there. But if this V is aggro and we hit our flush on river after calling, he probably barrels again (as he plays aggro and wide) and then we have him by the jewels. In other words, you raised turn because lots of players fold here in your experience at this game. But if you call (and you are certainly getting the odds to call) you may be able to get it all in there and stack him if he has what it looks like has (which at this pt is 2 pair or a set, or maybe even a flush/ combo draw himself - all of which he is probably getting it in with you if you hit on river). Id call turn...

as played though...river is easy call IMO. You only need to be ahead here 30% of the time or so to win $$$ and I think you definitely are. Sure he could have a boat with like 8-9 or something...but there are a ton of hands you beat. CALL river.

good hand...

This is an easy call, NOT raise, and definetly NOT fold. All for reasons described above and throughout the post. Results?

probably, but tbh, imo this hand is really not that complicated. problem spots for OP are imo preflop and turn which were misplayed i think, but, as played, we most likely have the best hand, villain very likely has a pretty good value hand too, time to go for a semithinly value raise and put him into the tough spot whether to make a tough call or a tough fold.

tbh, i really don´t think there is much more to say about this spot, the risk of valueowning ourselfes is one i will happily take compared to the times of villain having the sec best hand (most likely flush) and just is not able to get away from. yes, there is some risk to it, but the most optimal action imo to take. if you don´t valueown yourself sometimes, you don´t vbet thinly enough anyway

If though you raise 300 or 350 what happens if he shoves are we calling or folding. we would have put in 3+10+110+330?? =453. 147 to call now what??

Totally agree GG. I touched on this earlier in thread. I really felt (obv could be wrong, just being honest) that I could rule out a naked 8 cuz he called bomb on turn. The same people who make insane OOP and IP calls pre generally need big hands to call big raises later on in hand (w/ pairs, I mean. Obv, they make insane calls w/ draws).

I realize u guys r discussing the call or raise for river, just thought ur reasoning also applied to why I ruled out naked 8.

hahaha My immediate thought when he bet river was to raise. Stopped myself, slowed down, and started thinking, "Wait, what does this guy think I have?"

Love all the responses guys. I'm glad you found this hand interesting.

I'm clearly outnumbered on the turn raise. I had just seen this guy bet-bet-bet post-flop until he got some resistance. I thought his most likely hand was 8-x when he fired turn. Now, if others had called flop and we hadn't been heads-up on turn, clearly I would have taken his turn bet more seriously. That, combined w/ 1/3 tendency to fold 1 pair when bomb-raises come out, was why I raised. Sorry to keep repeating, but I really feel this reasoning has merit.

I mentioned before my immediate reaction to V's river bet was to raise. I could not for the life of me figure out what he thought I had. After further consideration, though, I thought even if he did consider a flush draw a possibility on turn, he's betting into that flush draw that just got there. My feeling was he figured my most likely turn holdings were any odd BB 2 pair+. Flush gets there for good measure, and he's betting into all of it.

While the people who give up their 1 pair holdings when the bombs come out, they will make seemingly crazy calls when drawing. So, like many of you, I thought a flush was an obvious possibility.

All of it mixed together for me added up to a call and he rolled over 8-9 for a boat.

Thx again for your thoughts. I got another hand to post soon that I'm afraid you guys are really gonna carve me up on.

Interesting hand, I would have just called on the river in this spot as well. I think it is very optimistic that V would call a large re-raise on the turn with just 8x; so we can eliminate hands like 86, 87, T8, J8. I agree he would probably 3-bet with a set here; though some V's become slightly cautious with bottom set in this situation and just call. When he calls the turn bet I think he does have some 2 pair combinations such as 84 and 98 but he obviously can have a lower flush or A8 I suppose. I just think shoving this river is -EV because I doubt he will call with worse unless he is a total fish.

Wow, not in a million years would I put this guy on top-two after he just called your turn raise. Cooler hand.

This is a good point. As I say, I do fear that I don't put villains to enough tough decisions at times.