Played this hand a few weeks ago.

History:
Was on a table with Villain 1 where he kept getting outdrawn for sickening pots. He then tried to keep bluffing some really terrible Asian kid (who i don't think even knew which card game he was playing and spoker zero English) and kept value towning himself. Seems like a thinking reg but was totally on tilt. LAG style at this moment in time.

Both of us have moved to another table as the last hour of play gets underway.

Villain 1 has been busted maybe 4/5 times and keeps rebuying for £150.

He's now gone on super monkey tilt and comes back from rebuying at the cashier and keeps stealing the blinds by shoving pre, and is tipping the dealer the blinds each time. Eventually he calms down and start just raising to £25 or £50 pre depending on how he feels.

Hand: 50p/50p 'Action' table.

Villain 1 (£150) UTG raises to £25 preflop.

Hero (£170) holding AA debates on whether to call or 3bet. It's such a tricky situation because anything I do looks super strong. I decide to flat thinking that others may think I'm just donkey set mining or something.

Villain 2 (£150) just came to the table - no reads, flat calls.

Everyone else folds.

Pot (£76)
Flop 678r

Villain 1 checks.

Hero decides that he can just take the pot now with a value bet which could induce a shove from Villain 1 who has been calling all ins and check-shoving all in with literally no outs.

Bets £50.

Villain 1 open folds out of turn and Villain 2 tanks before folding 99 face up.

Any thoughts on how to get more value from this hand in what i thought at the time was a very tricky situation? FWIW i asked Villain 2 if he calls a raise from me pre and he said that he woulda insta mucked.

I would think you have a better chance getting the money in by min raising pre and getting the maniac to spazz shove over the top?

If the maniac is a maniac he's probably never folding preflop... At the least he is gonna call, right?

That's the thing though, he's calmed down within the last 10 minutes and started only raising to £25 pre and has had noone play back at him. 10 mins earlier I would have min raised and let him spazz but i had a feeling he wasn't going to do it preflop vs me (he knows i'm a nit). After a glance at V2 who looked interested and had put a chip on top of his cards (sure sign of intention to play in this game) i thought calling would at least get the extra £25 out of him. Don't think a shove pre was getting called by either villain. Turns out i was the only person since V1 went on aggro tilt that he folded to. Everyone else he spewed off to (told you i'm a massive nit).

I actually like the shove preflop here, because it sets you up to do the same thing with weaker hands. If he is opening to 50BB and stacks are only around 300BB, then you should be shoving or folding. You can't call for 1/6 of your stack weak, everything looks strong here. Shove with AA and show, and get a bit more fold when you shove with AK.

Also, against this sort of play you need to open your range up and shove with anything that really beats his range, depending on how often, how big he opens and what the other players are doing. If your not bank rolled well enough to play that sort of bingo poker with odds in your favor, then leave table. I usually just leave in those situations because I'm fairly tight also and I don't really like playing those games even if villain is raising 100% of hands.

Yeh i like this advice the more and more i think about it.

At the time i didn't wanna just shove knowing that V1 is the only thinking player on the table (honestly the rest look at their cards and their chips and that's it) and i was the only one on the table who's been on the previous table with him getting owned.

I knew if i shoved he would KNOW i had him crushed...whether or not he would have folded i don't know but at the time i didn't want to just win £25 measly quid with the bullets.

Was really unsure of how to play it because i didn't think a shove was getting calls but flatting screamed strength. Afterwards i congratulated myself for getting an extra £25 out of V2 but i'm not sure it was the most +EV thing to do.

What I think would be more interesting in this situation would be what to do in this scenario with V2's hand. Maybe I'm crazy monkey aggro but I think V2's hand is a shove and it's not even close.

I think he has to put me on a big pair because of the action.

Against big pairs he has to pay 39% of the pot with ~35% equity if he shoves. The only way he can make a shove profitable is by also ranging me on a missed AK or by assuming i'm that tight i would fold big pairs.

Well, it's a very marginal equity position, but shoving will put TT-QQ in a very uncomfortable position and there's certainly chances that AA-KK could lay down here. The board hits a third caller square in the jaw.

I know that if I had AA-KK here I would be absolutely dreading him flipping over his hand. I certainly wouldn't snap call.

How often is he turning over a set or 2 pair? If he shoves i'm never folding after putting 125bb in. If i'm crushed, he got lucky.

a maniac is going to have crap most of the time. Unless he's completely terrible postflop (getting all in with A8 on a 678 board for example), I'm just going to 3bet preflop and hope he's dumb/strong enough to come along.

My goal is to always 3bet AA preflop. Always. The goal for the rest of the session is to build an image such that I might not have AA this time, because those other 2 times I had Axs and JTs.

If the guy is raising 50BB every hand pre, the question is not if you should be 3-bet shoving AA, but what range you should be 3-bet shoving.

Depending on how many people behind you, something like 66+; AJ+ imo. Even wider if everybody else has folded.

Very mandatory raise preflop 340bb deep. At 100bb deep I would just flat and try to stack someone who hit top pair on the flop.

"min raise" to 50 seems like a decent idea since in reality it's a freaking huge 3-bet (to 100bb, SPR <2 on the flop) but looks small and villain probably won't fold, then might feel committed on the flop

300bb deep....both only had £150 in play.

After thinking about it i think the minraise might have been best, whatever i'd have done looked super strong but i think the minraise would have been more EV positive in the long run cause it forces them to make more mistakes against me. The way the game was playing (top pair no kicker was gold to these people) i was willing to get it in on any flop.

Shove pre, makes u look like u have 88-JJ/AK

Regardless, if maniac's hand isn't ahead of that (and we have absolutely no reason to believe that it is) we're making the minimum.

Lets say you had garbage and not aces in this spot. Are you going to raise?

We have aces against a maniac 300bbs deep. Image building is not the priority. getting stacks in is.

I also don't like the minraise. My problem with it is that its just too easy a bet for our opponents to reflex call.... after all, im already half way in hurrr hurrr hurrr.

I would like the bet to be big enough so that one of my opponents (v1 is the most likely candidate) decides to shove over.... my thought is like 70 here.... it a significant enough raise that you arent going to just get called on reflex, but small enough so that it might look like you are afraid to play for stacks.

For whatever reason, V1 is playing very aggressively. He is open-shoving unraised pots and making out of porportion raises PF. He wants to _steal_ pots. But this does not mean he is calling light, too (necessarily).

thats why i don't like a shove. V most likely has a far wider range to 4b-shove a modest 3b than he does to call an all-in 3b.

But to be honest if i'd have minraised to £50 and gotten a call there's at least £101 in the pot. I'd be very happy to take that down given he's only got £50 behind. That's two buy ins at my level. Shoving any flop knowing he can't call without at least top pair or an overpair i crush.

Actually, what am I talking about.

Shove pre if he'll call a shove loose (i.e. call with a bunch)

Raise to L50 pre if he can fold a bunch of stuff, but nothing to a min-raise. And then shove the flop since it's a pot size bet.

When action gets to you, tighten your fist and snarl(as if you've HAD ENOUGH!!!) " Grrrr....stop raising sooo much!". Proceed to finish off the Hollywood with a convincing, frustrated shove over his open. Stare down. Wait for response.

Any chance in hell this gets a call often enough to be better than taking V2's 25£ ?

raise to 60 preflop. he ain't foldin

+1 THIS!!!!!

If we are in position, We probably should be 3-bet shoving KT+/88+ if V is really opening 50bb every hand.

+1

this is precisely WHY we want to min-raise or raise any amount in which our opponents will reflex call.

Given that our villain already raised 50bb and we are 300bb deep, there is literally no raise we can raise that will be mathematically incorrect facing just 2 villains

So, we should raise whatever gets the most callers which would be a min-raise. Plus, min-raises look fishy, they look like you are trying to "make a move". Min raises are also a slap to the ego, "who do you think you are? Who do you think you're messing with? How dare you min raise me!!!" and I can easily see a maniac shoving over the top of a min raise.

So yeah, min raise all day here. If called, pot will be 150bb - 300bb depending on how many people call we will have 200bb behind

how can you not love that???

Lastly, I don't mind a raise to 60 or 70 if we KNOW villains are snap calling it. Basically, there is nothing but +EV upside here, 50, 60, 70 its all good and you can make a case for either...

Not sure about shoving though, think we lose value

this..

when you have AA you're afraid to raise because you think he'll snap fold?

then why haven't you bluff 3betted his 50bb raise yet .. because you're afraid to risk him doing something tilty when you try

imo this is a contradiction.. 3bet the AA

No,
You must 3! with AA no matter what. The more money you put in the pot pf the more you make in the long run. That's a math fact. Even Johnny Prince on Fremont Street, LV know this simple concept. Now, I'm not saing your flat call is wrong. It's not! because you have 33% of ES into play and nobody'd got the correct odds to go for a set mining. But you'll be making much more if you 3! minimum another 50. They both will call that. I'm sure and they both are running up the hill ..., lol, lol....

Against one opponent you got 85% edge
Against two opponents ou are at 73% edge

You have two opponents. If you 3! for another 50 the pot gets to be 300+ the blinds instead 150+. Well 73% from 150 is less then 73% from 300. Isn't it.n So, go ahead and 3! always with AA. No matter how small you 3! would be, ...,but BET.

AK

3bet pre for sure. Even though villain is on tilt, do you really think he's folding JJ or AJs on tilt? Hell no, he'll snap jam over you and call it a cooler. However if you flat and he misses flop, he'll probably give up. Even if he's a drooler and ships J5s on a 678r flop he's probably calling the 3bet preflop anyway. Sure 3betting looks strong, but we're counting on his tilt to make it not matter. It's just one of those situations where you're either winning everything or winning nothing regardless of the action, so you might as well err on the side of winning everything.