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Old 05-25-2015, 05:51 AM   #1
djevans
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Interesting bluff spot in 1/2

Hero - $300 - in for $500 - Has been card dead all night but able to take down some pots as most villains are playing fit or fold

Villain - Saw him open $15 with random hands like Q8 - probably a fish since he opened it mid position a couple of times. Has been cbetting and bluffing and showed a few but has been getting people to fold successfully. Was up around $500 and starting to bluff it away. Has not been put to the test yet. I don't think he realizes his bet size to pot size and is more of a button clicker.

Hero has Q8 on cut off.

A few limps to hero and I decide to make a raise to punish limpers and I haven't played a hand in a few orbits so I figured I had a good image. Also table is not 3bet heavy and I think I can get some respect. I raised to $15

villain calls in BB and a few other calls.

Qx74

Villain donks $20 a few folds and I call.

2

Villain donks $35 - and i'm not sure i'm beat just yet - and i'm going to bluff heart rivers if I sense weakness. I call

River is 9

Villain bets $31 and doesn't look too happy about it.

I raise to $80 and he asks if I have 2 pair. Thinks about it for a bit and folds.

I think raising is better than calling here. Most LLSNL players are used to these small raises being value only and I was pretty sure it was going to work. My hand kind of looks like a flush draw and his bet looks more like a blocking bet.

I could of had him beat with the Q8 but I think more times i'm getting him to fold hands like AQ/QT/and apparently even 2 pair unless he was lying.

Not sure this would of worked vs a good player but it worked here and I don't think I have enough bluff raises in my range vs players who also bluff and try to run the table over. I'm pretty happy with the result

Last edited by djevans; 05-25-2015 at 06:02 AM.
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Old 05-25-2015, 08:27 AM   #2
DaYu
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Re: Interesting bluff spot in 1/2

don't post results in OP, please.

I'd probably raise a little larger on the river... I think he is going to shrug and call with sets and two pair when it's "only $49 more."

Spoiler:
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Old 05-25-2015, 09:05 AM   #3
NeverLosesAtPoker
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Re: Interesting bluff spot in 1/2

Your river sizing is terrible.
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Old 05-25-2015, 09:21 AM   #4
ninedash
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Re: Interesting bluff spot in 1/2

Grunch:

I've just recently started playing live and have been playing pretty nitty so maybe take my advice with a grain of salt.

I wouldn't raise this hand preflop. It's not a very strong hand and you really don't want to bloat the pot with a bad hand unless you can maybe get in HU and cbet and take down a ton of pots of the flop. At your average 1/2 table I think you're just getting way to many calls and don't have a ton of room to maneuver postflop. Also I don't really think "punishing limpers" is a real reason to want to raise preflop, just wait till you have a strong hand and shovel money in the pot. Also I don't really think your image matters very much. I'd probably fold preflop here, but overlimping is probably fine as well.

So I'm guessing on the flop we're 4 way so the pots around $60. I think a call on the flop is fine in this situation as you only need 20% equity.

On the turn pot is 100 and he's betting 35. I think we can probably call here again if we think villain has a decent amount of draws in his range. We don't really beat any Qx that he's betting here (assuming he checks really weak Qx on the turn and also the fact that he called PF means that his Qx is probably skewed towards ones that beat us). I think you could probably find a fold here, but don't think calling is terrible.

On river I don't really think at 1/2 we should try to bluff villains off TP+. Even if they think they're beat they'll call in a lot of cases. I think we should just fold here. If you do decide to raise you should raise bigger as you only made it a bit more than a minraise
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Old 05-25-2015, 12:34 PM   #5
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Re: Interesting bluff spot in 1/2

[Responses will generally be more useful if you don't post results.]


I think the raise pre is OK, assuming you're comfortable you'll have the advantage post.

I'm interpreting "few" as "three", so pot is $75 minus rake on the flop. V donks $20. Stereotypically, I think this is a nervous hand, maybe something like a Q without a strong kicker. I'd expect a fish to bet larger with a better hand or check if he missed completely. I don't expect him to donk a flush draw, except possibly for a big combo draw.

We're ahead of Q2, Q3, Q5, Q6, tied with Q8 and losing to Q9, QT, QJ. At this point, I'm assuming he doesn't have KQ or AQ. I think the hands we're losing to are more likely to be in his range than the hands we're beating.

So I think we're probably behind, but the bet is giving you nearly 5:1 so a call seems reasonable.

Turn pot is $115 and V leads for $35. I'm gaining more confidence we're behind, but again with the lol-sized bet. We might be ahead (though I think that's increasingly unlikely), we might be able to bluff the river or we might spike an 8. Given the small bet size, if calling is a mistake, it can't be a big one. I wouldn't hate a fold though.

On the river, we don't need to bluff if he has air or a weaker queen. If we bluff we're trying to fold out queens with at least a T+ kicker. If we can fold out some random 2P hands, that would nice. We're unlikely to fold out a set or flush.

After V's bet, pot is $216; with our call it would be $247. I'd probably make it $131 total ($100 on top of his bet). We only have to have this work a little over 1/3 the time and I think $100 is a psychological threshold.
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Old 05-25-2015, 03:02 PM   #6
djevans
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Re: Interesting bluff spot in 1/2

ya but some these players are nits and will fold to the smallest bet. There is always that 1 person at the table you can bluff but most of them you probably shouldn't. Also when your image is good it helps.


I've had a guy fold a straight to an $80 river bet in a $250 pot because the board paired on the river and he said - what else could I have but a full house? It is hard to get value when people fold that easily but it's also easy to bluff them off the best hand.
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Old 05-25-2015, 04:53 PM   #7
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Re: Interesting bluff spot in 1/2

Quote:
Originally Posted by djevans View Post
Hero has Q8 on cut off.

A few limps to hero and I decide to make a raise to punish limpers and I haven't played a hand in a few orbits so I figured I had a good image. Also table is not 3bet heavy and I think I can get some respect. I raised to $15
This isn't a valid reason to get involved. Yes, SUX to be running card dead when you have deep stacked fish involved and you're not getting any of their chips. Nothing you can do about that. It's still a horrid hand in a marginal position. "Villain - Saw him open $15 with random hands like Q8" -- why play down to his level? You want to catch the fish OOP with a better hand when he plays stuff like that. If you think he'll triple barrel with less than a pair of queens, or an even weaker queen, then why let him off the hook? Call for cheap, and see what develops.

If you have a bunch of fish limping ahead of you, your raise has little to no fold equity. Why spend the extra chips for nothing? Either muck it or limp along and hope no one behind you has a better hand they'll raise with.

Quote:
villain calls in BB and a few other calls.

Qx74

Villain donks $20 a few folds and I call.

2

Villain donks $35 - and i'm not sure i'm beat just yet - and i'm going to bluff heart rivers if I sense weakness. I call

River is 9

Villain bets $31 and doesn't look too happy about it.

I raise to $80 and he asks if I have 2 pair. Thinks about it for a bit and folds.

I think raising is better than calling here. Most LLSNL players are used to these small raises being value only and I was pretty sure it was going to work. My hand kind of looks like a flush draw and his bet looks more like a blocking bet. They've saved me a ton of cash when they announce they're nutted with uncharacteristic bets.

I could of had him beat with the Q8 but I think more times i'm getting him to fold hands like AQ/QT/and apparently even 2 pair unless he was lying.

Not sure this would of worked vs a good player but it worked here and I don't think I have enough bluff raises in my range vs players who also bluff and try to run the table over. I'm pretty happy with the result
You're over thinking this. You can be sure your fish knows nothing about value raises, or blocking bets, or anything like that. He probably isn't thinking your play looks like a flush draw, even if he noticed in the first place. Look at the bet sizing here: it's hideous, and very fishy. He isn't considering he's laying you a helluva price to draw if you had a draw. He isn't considering SPR or even thinking along those lines.

I see these kinds of fish all the time, and they leave tons of value on the table through very poor bet sizing.

"'m getting him to fold hands like AQ/QT/and apparently even 2 pair unless he was lying".

No way Jose; not a chance Sundance! These fish aren't thinking beyond: "Me has queens! Me plays!" They'll play TP come Hell or high water, all the way regardless. Given the way he plays, it's best to check and call. He loves to bluff, so let him. On the river, no need to risk an extra $49: call, beat his ( Q, 2 ) (or whatever garbage he's playing here) and collect the chips. Your river "bluff" probably wasn't a bluff anyway, as you had the best hand all the way. He won't lay down any queen, and he certainly isn't laying down any two pair or better.

No need to out think these types because they're not thinking.
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Old 05-25-2015, 07:58 PM   #8
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Re: Interesting bluff spot in 1/2

I don't mind pre based on the table dynamic you described and your image/tightness. I'm pretty much always raising Q8s from the CO over a few limpers as you will often just take it down pre or with a c-bet on favorable flops.

However, I'm not inclined to turn a hand with showdown value into a pointless bluff on the river as it accomplishes nothing. You fold out all the hands you already beat and get called by everything better. Trying to target a select few hands you are behind (QT, Q9, maybe QJ) is not a valid reason to bluff raise as you are never making AQ/KQ fold with your river sizing.

If you are going to play Q8s you've got to play it a little more aggressive in my opinion. I don't like the dynamic of raising pre and then just passively calling small donk bets all the way down. You don't know that V isn't drawing to a flush or straight and trying to set his own (cheap) price. Continue telling the story by raising pre and raising the flop. I'm guessing this was 4-way on the flop so ~$55 after rake. I would raise his small donk of $20 to $75 and be happy when he folds.

You don't play Q8s for the pair of Queens value, you play it as a bluff that can occasionally flop well (two pair, trips, flush draws). So raising the flop is overrepping your hand/turning it into a bluff but that's the point of playing Q8s.
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Old 05-25-2015, 08:49 PM   #9
KatoKrazy
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Re: Interesting bluff spot in 1/2

In live poker almost nobody is paying attention to whether you have folded every hand for the last three hours, and even if they are, most will still shrug call with their KQo to your UTG open anyways.

Also, image is more a function of winning or losing than it is playing well.

As played, if you are going to turn your hand into a bluff, you really need to make the sizing a bit bigger. Villains don't like to lay down "big" absolute value hands like TPTK+, especially when it is only a small amount more (even if their relative value is fairly poor).
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Old 05-25-2015, 11:17 PM   #10
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Re: Interesting bluff spot in 1/2

PF is slightly ambitious and I probably prefer overlimping to raising in this spot, but can be fine if you have strong postflop reads on your opponents. Flop and turn are both fine.

Raising river is good, but I think you need to make it bigger here. $131 should fold out almost his entire range.
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Old 05-25-2015, 11:18 PM   #11
wilburtrey
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Re: Interesting bluff spot in 1/2

I agree with most other people here, raising in this spot is just to spewy for myself. Q-8 without a perfect flop just isn't good. I would fold, even in the cut off. IF it had folded to me I might raise with Q-8 in the cutoff, I would never call a limp, or a raise with Q-8 even SOOOOTTTTEEEEDDDDDD... to many times you are in a hard position and don't know where you are you might get a flush but you are only 3rd nut. Take all of this with a grain of salt as I am a newer live player myself. However, I think this is just to loose to be profitable in the long run.

After that I think it was played well till the river but that has been covered in detail.
All in all a nice play but a competent player that frequents these boards would likely have sniffed out your line here and put you to a tough test.
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Old 05-25-2015, 11:38 PM   #12
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Re: Interesting bluff spot in 1/2

Grunch

I wouldnīt have gotten to the flop. Love the river bluff, I would raise more to keep him from making a crying call. You are giving him like 5-1 on a call (hard to know because you didnīt include pot sizes or exact limpers on flop). Probably he is not doing the math, but I would make sure he is getting worse than 3-1. Nice hand OP. Looking foreward to results.
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Old 05-26-2015, 01:57 AM   #13
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Re: Interesting bluff spot in 1/2

I just take the $31 showdown here mostly. It seems very situational that better folds
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Old 05-26-2015, 04:19 AM   #14
djevans
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Re: Interesting bluff spot in 1/2

Quote:
Originally Posted by kookiemonster View Post
Grunch

I wouldnīt have gotten to the flop. Love the river bluff, I would raise more to keep him from making a crying call. You are giving him like 5-1 on a call (hard to know because you didnīt include pot sizes or exact limpers on flop). Probably he is not doing the math, but I would make sure he is getting worse than 3-1. Nice hand OP. Looking foreward to results.
the results are in the first post - he folded and I won
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Old 05-26-2015, 04:47 AM   #15
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Re: Interesting bluff spot in 1/2

Quote:
Originally Posted by djevans View Post
the results are in the first post - he folded and I won
Haha. NH NH. I usually don't read after the river action if grunching. Should have gone back and read it after I posted.
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