Played a hand tonight and want to see if folks think I overplayed my hand. Villain is an ok experienced player with some overvaluing tendencies.

6 handed table

Villain opens cutoff to 20 hero calls on the button with 3s3d, SB folds, BB calls

(90) 9s3c8d BB checks V bets 65 hero calls BB folds

I dont see a point raising on this board yet since 98s is the only value hand I can rep or maybe 88. Villain is known to double and triple barrel.

(210) 9s3c8d Qd Villain bets 145 hero calls

JT does get there from the perspective of the villain but that is not slowing him down. I would think he would check calls with AA, KK but who knows.

(500) 9s3c8d Qd Ts Villiain bets 260 hero calls

This is just a bad runout for hero where he is beat to all sets but the main questions is the straights .. how many of them does he hanve and take this line except with JJ?

Is the call on the river correct?

Yes calling river is fine, I think you should raise the turn

Yeah this is a pretty bad run out. I probably raise the turn. Although I dont think calling here is terrible. The river sucks. If he over commits he could be playing AA KK in a similar manner. We have underrepped the whole way through so I probably call.

I don’t see a lot of “ok experienced” players in my room bet the river with hands I beat here. The one liner to a straight is such a flashing red light that even these villains that “sometime over value hands” slow down on the river with their overpair and two pair hands (which I think make up a good portion of their turn double barreling range).

I’d fold this river as played.

I’d probably just call the turn as most river cards aren’t that bad and I’d expect a third bet by most villains. That said, a raise here as others suggest may make sense.




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How deep was the effective stack?

After you check call flop,you’ve sealed a call,call line.

We were both 1k deep.

He showed up with J9s so I think he might take the same line with Q9s Q8s and maybe even AA thinking that I have a lot of tens but not many Jack's.

He's on the button so he can't check call flop. It was bet/call all the way down.

I might be a huge nit, but I would fold the river -- unless we have a strong read that Villain likes to make half-pot blocking bets with 2pair when a draw comes in? Like, have you seen him make this play when four-to-a-flush hits the river? His sizing screams value. Your button calling range contains so many jacks, so we should have a lot of combos of better hands to call down with: JT and QJ make up a sizeable portion of our river range. TT, 99 or 88 are also better hands. We have plenty of better hands to call/raise with -- we don't have to turn 2pair or bottom set into a bluff catcher in this situation.

Isn't that more of a reason to raise since you are repping so few value hands? Your play would look like a bluff.

Is there any difference between 33 and 99 on the river? We do have 16 combos of TJ and maybe 3-4 combos of QJ but none of those are in the bet/call line o actions. Would you agree?

Re the flop, you should be raising a mix of value and semibluffs. If this were the river, you would want to have a mixture of 2 value hands per 1 bluff. Since this is the flop and there is an increased threat of future bets, you can mix in more bluffs. A good rule of thumb is probably 1 to 2 semibluffs per value hand. A very reasonable raising range would be {JT,99,88,33,89s}. That's 16 bluff combos and 11 value combos. If the board were double suited you could add in a few combos of NFDs and you would remain balanced.

Thinking about it more, I should have done that at least on the turn like many of you suggested.

On the flop for value I have 33, 99, 88 and 98s for 11 combos and 16 combos of TJ as semi-bluff making me pretty balanced there. Although both of us have 33, 88 and 99 so that makes my raise more bluff heavy ... just rambling here.

I like a raise on the flop

99 is better to call down with because you said he's the type of player who could be value betting worse. 99 beats 88 but 33 does not. I would agree that 88 and 33 are basically equivalent.

I don't understand. Why doesn't TJ and QJ fit into your calling range? I don't know how you play, but I would be floating QJ like 100% of the time on this board and calling turn. You could raise or call with JT on the flop. You're definitely not raising with JT for the nuts on the turn (others have recommended this, but I disagree -- in general we don't want to raise with the nuts on the turn when we are in position and our opponent is acting aggressively). So I think you should have quite a few combos of jacks here. BTW, when it gets to analysis of the river action, it's 12 combos of JT not 16, since the T on the board is a blocker.

I was thinking about the flop action, and I noticed how deep we are (1k effective). What should we be raising with on the flop? Obviously, all of our sets and 2 pairs for value. But what should our bluffs be? At first, I thought that JT would be an ideal hand, with 8 outs to the nuts and 6 outs to top pair. Thinking about it further, though, JT cannot stand a 4-bet on the flop. If we make it 200 and villain repops it to 500, we cannot justify a call -- therefore, the hands which we are most likely to get a ton of value from if we hit our nut draw (99 and 88), Villain will likely be 4-betting, and we cannot call.

Is that right?

If we aren't bluffing with JT, what is our bluffing range on the flop?

I think well played.

hard to know how to play this hand properly without knowing stack sizes

Edit: I see you added that information in a later post.

I don't think this is a call 100% of the time on the flop, there is definitely a percentage of the time you should raise with your hand. I'd consider raising with hands like QT, JT, T7s and 67s...and if you are going to raise this flop in position with those types of hands then there needs to be some made hands that you should consider raising with as well.

TJ and and QJ doesnt fit in my bet/call bet/call bet/call bet/call range. I am raising that river 100% of the time. Thats what I meant when I said that in my current line there is little difference between 99 or 33 but I see your point how 99 are obviously dominating other sets that he will play the same way.

What you said about the bluffing range on the flop is what was going through my head in not raising bottom set on the flop but I think raising on the turn can be justified and only occurred to me briefly before I brushed it aside (probably incorrectly).

JTM suggested doing it sometimes ... I guess I would have to figure out that sometimes someway.

Thanks for all the input fellows.

against players that are likely to c-bet at a much to high frequency, raising with a drawing hand is ideal. A lot of times you'll just take the hand down which is obviously a good result. You also take the betting lead away from them which will a lot of times allow you to either follow a 2nd bullet on the turn to fold old some of their remaining calling hands OR get to the river with out having to put additional money in on the turn.

In addition to maximizing your fold equity, a certain percentage of the time you'll improve to the nuts, and now the pot is bigger so you'll make more money.

Flat calling can be less profitable against certain players because when the turn comes a blank, which it will most of the time, you are now most likely facing a bet with not proper odds to see the river.

What I meant to say was that you should have some combos of JT and JQ in your bet/call bet/call bet/call range (just 3 b/c's) --let's call this range R. From the perspective of a thinking villain, when he bets into us on the river, he should be thinking about your R range and whether you have any value combos in R that will call his river bet -- or rather, if he gets to the river with air, he should think whether you have sufficiently many weak hands in R that he can profitably make a bluff. Your goal is to remain balanced at the river, so you have an even mixture of strong and weak hands in R.

When we think about how to construct your R range (b/c 3 times), we want to include a mixture of nutted hands (Jacks), middling hands with some river showdown value (bluff-catchers like 2pair and sets) and weak hands (missed draws).

This is why I like taking a mixture of different lines.

Usually raise your middling draws (like JQ) on the flop, but sometimes just call.

Usually call your strong draws (like JT) on the flop, but sometimes also raise.

Personally, for flop semibluffs I would raise the 12 JQo combos and 4 JTs combos (3 of these are super strong, with backdoor flush draws, and they can GII on the flop if V 4-bets), plus some other assorted random hands (maybe the 9 combos of T7s,67s,QTs with backdoor draws). I would call with my JQs combos and JTo combos. I prefer to just call with most of my JT combos because they have so much equity, that they can probably afford to call again on the turn in case the turn bricks off.

It goes without saying that we cannot raise every JQ and JT combos on the flop because then our flop raising range would become too unbalanced with too many bluffs and not enough value hands. We can afford to raise about half of our 32 JQ and JT combos and we should be okay. Of course, if our opponent is a fish who cbet/folds too often, we can probably get away with raising all 32 draw combos. It's only against thinking villains that we have to worry about balancing our range

Grunch.

Raise flop. You have very few value hands here and a lot of combo draws/bluffs, it’s perfect spot to raise... your reasoning for flatting flop is completely backwards

Ott ap is a flat, dont raise.

River ap fold

Thank you for a detailed explanation. After reading this and other comments I just feel that should be raising a lot more combos for value and as semi-bluff than I am doing right now.