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Improve after calling turn check raise Improve after calling turn check raise

12-18-2016 , 12:53 PM
1/2 $400 max game at out-of-town casino. I've played there a couple times when visiting family. I recognize a couple of the regs at the table, but I'm likely unknown to them.

Me: early 30's, likely TAG image. Only showed down strong hands since sitting down. I've been on a rush and have pretty much just had it every time.

Villain: middle-aged guy, definitely a reg in this room. Has a vendetta thing going on with a maniac at our table. They've been 3 and 4-betting each other preflop for the last hour. Called down the maniac 3 streets, including river shove with only 2nd pair and was good. He and I played a large 3-way pot where we both called a short-ish stack shove on the turn and we checked down the river. I was good with TPTK.

I start this hand with $800 and he covers.

Maniac ($400) just rebought and opens to $10 UTG. He's been all over the place. 3! shoving, overbetting 5x on flops, etc.
V calls in HJ
I raise to $35 on BTN with AQ

Maniac folds, MP folds, V calls. I guess I should be calling here a lot to keep maniac in, but I'm sort of hoping he'll rip it here. He's been showing up with all kinds of hands and I'm waayyyyyyy ahead of his range.

Flop ($80 minus rake) A4K
V checks
I bet $40, V calls. Not sure this is very controversial. I want to get value and charge any draws he might have. He obviously can't have a ton other than diamonds (less likely b/c of the A flopped), but I can see him calling the maniac with all kinds of suited junk and a few A high hands and KQ, KJ suited, etc. Thoughts on sizing? Should I be betting bigger here in position?

Turn ($160) 6

V checks

I'm trying to get some value from a worse A or perhaps a good king. My hope is he found himself with some piece of the flop and I can squeeze a little more value from him. I'm planning to check behind on most rivers unless I improve.

I bet $70 and V raises to $165. For some reason, this feels a lot like a semi-bluff with a diamond draw. I suppose he could also have a set or AK which he played passively preflop to let the maniac stack off. I don't know, so I called.

River ($490) Q

V bets $225 with two $100 bills (they play here) and a green chip.

Hero?
Improve after calling turn check raise Quote
12-18-2016 , 01:20 PM
I don't see a big point in 3b! pre-flop with these guys in the hand. So I actually look to just flat pre-flop.

I'm not sure you want to be calling a shove from Villain if it happens for 200bb with AQs.

You need to have a big bankroll and be very accurate on your reads.

I probably just check behind flop, there is some value to be had, but another spot where we can afford to see a turn card. In the end we are 400bb deep and we're not trying to build a massive pot with TP when we are way ahead of his range. We can afford to give up a card.

You probably should not be betting in general here. Once I bet flop and he calls, I'm betting again on turn.

I don't like your turn sizing. It's one of those spots, I have no idea where I am because I put myself in this spot to get semi-bluffed. It's a semi-inducing sizing. Whether we should be calling the c/r or not is difficult to decide.

If you call turn, I'm calling river. As now his weaker 2p hands we're now ahead of. I expeect him to show up with a hand like KQ/JT/44/66/AK and some missed flush draws.
Improve after calling turn check raise Quote
12-18-2016 , 01:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dochrohan
I don't see a big point in 3b! pre-flop with these guys in the hand. So I actually look to just flat pre-flop.

I'm not sure you want to be calling a shove from Villain if it happens for 200bb with AQs.
Not super relevant, but to be clear: I had seen him open-shove, 3-bet shove, and shove vs 5 limpers with 95o, KTs, and 77, respectively.
Improve after calling turn check raise Quote
12-18-2016 , 01:26 PM
How has villain been playing outside hands with the maniac? Villain's play against maniac may be very different then how he plays other players.

Mostly though this looks like a call after you hit two pair. Your not always good, villain can show up with a set but AA/KK/AK all are more likely to raise preflop given the dynamic. This can be a missed flush draw or worse two pair. Without more history it's hard to fold despite villain taking a fairly strong line.

Since villain isn't the maniac I would have probably checked flop or turn. You only have one pair and don't want to play a huge pot against a non-maniac villain.
Improve after calling turn check raise Quote
12-18-2016 , 01:31 PM
I like the 3bet. With 3 callers I think you could have made it a bit bigger but $35 is all right.

I'm snap calling that river as played. There's just not a lot of combos there... sure, 444... I'd assume he 3bets AK pre... He's just repping such a narrow range, and if I'm calling that turn I'm definitely calling the river.

I think losing here on the river is definitely a cooler and I wouldn't worry about it.
Improve after calling turn check raise Quote
12-18-2016 , 02:15 PM
Grunch:

Not sure I like the call of the turn c/r. Turn semi bluff c/r's are pretty rare from non-maniacs. You have bet pretty small though, so he might think you're just barreling or trying to set a price for a FD.

AP, call river. Most of his AK and flopped sets would have raised OTF, imo, with the FD out and a desire to play a big pot. He's not calling a raise with worse, and we didn't call a c/r that we thought might be a semi-bluff to fold when the draw doesn't come in.
Improve after calling turn check raise Quote
12-18-2016 , 05:45 PM
Bet bigger on the turn. It looks like villain is sticky and isn't folding Ax or Kx to a larger turn bet. I would bet around $110 on the turn.

As played, river is a snap call. Villain didn't 3bet the maniac pre so hands like QQ-AA and AK are discounted so you're really worried about only 44 and 66 (6 combinations total). Add in 2 combinations of A6s villain could be value betting and you have the right pot odds to call. This is the worst case scenario you would likely find yourself in.

I'm not raising here as you won't get called by worse often enough.
Improve after calling turn check raise Quote
12-19-2016 , 08:24 AM
I would normally call pre given the circumstances, but raising is fine too.

I think your first mistake is the betting the flop. It's customary to check an Ace to get induce a Villain bet. Betting an ace often signals "I don't have one" and so the play is to begin to move one off the hand.

Your turn bet is too small. With a flush on the board, you should bet close to the size of the pot. (Had you checked, it would be smaller). In this car, I would bet $150. This will help you set up the river.

Given how you played the hand, I think you have to call the river with two pair. But, "small hand, small pot" ... you should have tried and worked pot control better. You had position but let the pot balloon and now you're stuck with one pair improving to two pair.

I truly hate AQ. The only time I'm comfortable playing it is with two over cards to a flush draw.
Improve after calling turn check raise Quote
12-19-2016 , 09:21 AM
You can't call the turn and then fold the river. It's waaay non-GTO.

I agree with others and what it looks like on the turn is that he's trying to build the pot now because he let it stay small long enough. So I think that screams of value.

I think this might actually be a shove OTR.

It's quite possible that he was trapping here with KK.

The essential problem is that your hand is face up.

Last edited by BadlyBeaten; 12-19-2016 at 09:30 AM.
Improve after calling turn check raise Quote
12-19-2016 , 10:19 AM
Preflop: V obviously thinks he plays much better postflop than Maniac, therefore, I could see him possibly calling pre with AA/KK/AK. Reason being: You're a TAG & will raise your strong holdings OTB.

I can also see him flatting AA/KK/AK vs. your 3! pre, after the other 2 fold. He is OOP & can trap if you don't pay attention.

After the Flop, that's a whopping 10 combos he could have out of his whole range.

I can't imagine him flatting with QQ, unless he is willing to c/f, or b/f to a raise with the kind of flop that came in this hand. Since there would be $90 in the pot after I called your $35 3! pre, I would normally raise $90 on top. However, I would have to believe that you can fold AK/AQ the vast majority of the time.

I would call your 3! with any pair due to size of raise & stack sizes.

Flop: As V, I would c/r my AA/KK/AK/44. Since the pot is $160 after I put in the $40 you bet, I would raise $100 on top with my 44. This makes it easier to fold if you come over the top, if I believe you're good enough to flat with AK.

If I think you'd 3! here with AK, I'd lead out with my 44 for $40 myself & call most 3! bets from you, as I would think you'd want to keep me in the pot holding AK & wouldn't raise a substantial amount. Unless, you're the type to 'fear' flush draws vs. 1 V. In that case, I'd lead out with more, to try & erase any thoughts you might have that I'm trying to control the pot with a flush draw. I think $65 would be the correct amount.

With AA/KK I would c/r $60 on top, after you bet the flop.

You would think the same thing that you thought on the Turn, that I was semi-bluffing with a flush draw, & call.

Turn: 6h At this point, I win. Unless you have a flush draw. If I am certain you would semi-bluff a flush draw, such as KQ, I lead out for 3/4 pot.

Since V didn't play like this, he is either massaging you with the same hands above, believing in your propensity to continue betting, and doesn't 'fear' the flush draw, or he doesn't hold those hands.

So, when he c/r the Turn, he has put you in a tougher spot when he holds those hands, than I would have. I would think the Q OTR is the only thing that made him more money.

He made a nicely sized value bet with the best hand OTR. He only needs you to fold the best hand a little less than 1/3rd of the time when he bets with his KQ.

Since you didn't fold OTT, I hope you called the River.
Improve after calling turn check raise Quote
12-19-2016 , 10:31 AM
Thanks for all the feedback. I think I struggle with 3! Then hitting the flop and checking. I know betting 3 streets and getting called means I'm unlikely to be good, so pot control in these spots is something I need to work on.

For what it's worth, I called pretty quickly and he showed 44.

I think I was folding river if I hadn't improved to 2 pair. I'm probably nearly at the bottom of my calling range here. Pretty sure if I got to the river with AJ or AT I'm folding. I even said to him before calling, "I think that queen just cost me a bunch of money."

Last edited by mervinswerved; 12-19-2016 at 10:48 AM.
Improve after calling turn check raise Quote
12-19-2016 , 10:43 AM
He sure did make a lot of $$$$ off of his bottom set.....I play bad!
Improve after calling turn check raise Quote
12-19-2016 , 12:13 PM
Turn is a bet/fold. If he's got a draw he's likely to semi-bluff raise it on flop rather than turn. You're just never ahead of this line with TPTK. As played I guess you have to call river.
Improve after calling turn check raise Quote

      
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