$35 in general is a small bet on the turn for $1/$3. You are getting a great price to call here, especially when effective stack is $450 to start. I'm willing to put in up to $45 here just to draw to the boat if I had $450 to start the hand.

Competent villains are often going to bet $50 here on the turn whether they have a hand or not. You can't pass up the price to draw to the effective nuts.

Villain basically always has to lead out with a nut flush if the board pairs on the river if he is only leading out for $35 with it when he makes it on the turn, or he'll check to call, so not only do you have implied odds for his full stack you have at least guaranteed value if you do make your hand. Villain can probably only fold to a river raise from the button given your read if the river pairs the jack and he puts you on king jack, because your hand is extremely well disguised.

If you don't make anything on the river and still find a fold to a river bet, and he does have the flush, you're basically playing the hand optimally and only losing the minimum anyways because against a villain who can shove jack-high preflop you basically have to continue on the 4 to a flush board with a set when you're HU against him and the bet is only $35 because there is still a chance your set alone is good.

I'm going to disagree here, for a few reasons.

#1 this is $1/$3. at most $1/$3 tables you can bloat up the pot at any street, and definitely overbet the pot on the flop or turn and get called by a range wider than you are probably expecting. so that alone takes away one big reason for raising pre(being able to build a pot you can make larger on later streets) because you can make the pot as big as you want on later streets anyway.

#2 small pocket pairs are hands that don't flop particularly well against hands that are going to be calling $25 raises at this table (probably). remember, villain in BB is assumed to be holding the nut flush on the turn and he is betting only $35 into what probably looks like a $70 pot. what is he going to need to call $25? rolled up kings?

#3 you run the risk of being limp-repopped on a table with maniacs who are shoving J6s pre-flop and thats like the absolute worst thing that can happen to you with pocket 5s. someone who is shoving j6s pre is probably someone who can pick up that you're just trying to scoop a small pot from the straddle with a position raise like that and there is low chance they'll show respect for it if "come over the top with j6s" is part of their pre-flop game.

just imagine what happens if that scenario occurs. you have a hand that flops to the nuts and you have the dealer button and instead of getting to see a flop now you're getting limp-reraised by a villain who starts his shoving range at exactly the point against which you start flipping against him? any time you're getting limp-3bet here you're never going to be ahead and you probably don't have fold equity either.

#4 lets say someone calls $25 and this flop comes out. now what do you do? go all in when big blind leads out for $50? your hand doesn't even look that good now against hands that will be calling you and then leading out on the flop.

pot control and getting a cheap price on the turn to make a hand you can win an entire stack with is a good way to play this hand.

+1

That's exactly how I view bets/bet-sizing

And not to derail the thread, but I gotta say... I attribute the beginning of my interest in the advanced concepts of poker to one of your posts in a thread I made about 5 years ago, where you explained (in detail) villains range based on my HUD stats, you guessed villains hand exactly, and even went as far as to post a picture of the hand.... Your insightful responses always interest me and keep me thinking outside the box. Keep up the solid posts man....

Thanks man. I found that old thread. Damn. That was a sweet post. I might have been smarter 5 years ago

LOL

What does a guy that straddles care about pot control and getting a cheap price?

Yeah, bingo.

I just put this into action last night actually. Before, I would go through all the action that happened and try to add up the pot in my head, then add the bet I was looking at and try to divide it in my head, realize I was taking a really long time, and just give up and call or fold arbitrarily. Or just know in advance that it would take too long and not bother but just make really crude estimates.

You're method really works though, and it turns out that just counting the pot is really easy (I was counting the reds in twos last night - 10,20,30,40...). It still took me a bit but not nearly as long, and I'm sure it'll get faster. Do you count up the pot in tens willy? For bigger pots this won't work. Might be better just to tally it up at the beginning of every street. If you or anyone else has a method to count, or any other shortcut related to odds, I'd love to hear it.

Anyway the thing that really made the lightbulb go off was when you mentioned that the "1" in the formula represents the bet. I'd read articles about pot/implied odds but they never mentioned that --- I guess it's ldo, but not to me. I bet a lot of beginning poker players have trouble, not understanding the concept/math, but being able to apply it under pressure, because they don't know that.

To the above poster - just keep track of the bet sizes on each street and add them up in your head. Counting chips takes too long and other players will notice you staring at the pot.

Yeah, I was thinking that I would also have to count up the pot when I had a made hand to not make it a tell. No one noticed/cared last night but I know some players at my game who definitely would notice/exploit. It would be better just to tally as I go I suppose. Willy did talk about being able to eyeball a pot in a few seconds though. Not sure how he/others would do that.

+1

You should always be keeping track of the pot in your head on a street by street / bet by bet basis. With practice, this becomes second nature after a while.

^ Exactly. And as far as taking a while to figure out what to do.... Who gives a ****??? If it's a decision that will determine whether or not the pot goes from 20bb to 200bb then take your time. It's different from online where you have a time limit. Live, I'm always very deliberate when making decisions. After a while when people start to realize you're not doing it because you're brain dead and not paying attention, but because you're trying to find the best line, no one will complain. As a matter of fact they'll start to fear you.

This is definitely not true, noone will fear you they will be annoyed with you. That being said, f' them its your money take however much time you need. But especially at 5-5 and below, noone is going to fear you because you take your time only. Maybe if after taking your time you consistently make good plays, but that can be accomplished any number of ways.. if thinking it through is your plan then do that.

That was my point: take your time, consistently put pressure on your opponents and make the best possible decisions. The guys who snap bet, snap fold and snap call are the easiest guys to play against because you can tell what they have most of the time. They put no thought into what they're doing and they're transparent. Now it's a completely different story if you take your time and make laughable plays. Then you'll just annoy people. But I've found when I'm in a pot and take 15-20 seconds on average before making decisions, people realize I know what I'm doing and start to avoid getting in tough situations with me, which in turn makes the game that much easier to beat. And if they get annoyed, you've just created another advantage for yourself. Now they're frustrated and will probably make bad choices based on the fact they're annoyed at how long it's taking.

In that case, we are in agreement

I just find it unbelievably annoying when people take their sweet time but they are still doing dumb things. They are clearly not thinking anything through they just think thats what the pros do I should do it. I usually will start needling these ppl about being online super-pros lol. The guy who takes time and then does smart things I usually will let alone because if you have a genuine thought process I figure you deserve to have that time. Just don't waste my time doing nothing and then donk your money off that could have been accomplished immediately lol