3/5

stacks
V1 1000+
V2 800-850
V3 1000+
Hero 950ish

players/reads
V1- MAAG-pretty straight forward-isnt afraid of putting his money in when he thinks he has the best hand, no other real reads besides his betting tells, can get married to TPTK
V2- MAWG- love to chase/Ace master, is happy to pay just about anything for a draw, will call off light if he has TP or MP decent kicker
V3- MAAG- will just about play any 2 preflop will bet out on just about any board if he senses weakness in the other players
Hero- seen as Aggressive/bluffer. first 2 hours of the session didn't play that well and cards going against me so in for about 3 buys.

The hand
V1 UTG raises to 30
V2 in MP calls
V3 in CO calls
Hero on button with Q8 calls
short stack (170) calls in the BB calls

reads
when I saw V1 do this I pretty much put him on AA-JJ,AK maybe AQs but not 100% on that given the way he bets, IF he had only bet 15-20 can put him on 99+,ATs+,KJs+
when V2-V3 calls they are calling very wide here
V2 pretty much any ace,PP,SC,1 and 2 gappers, suited Jx+,
V3 is even wider than that
I am 50/50 on calling here I know my hand is pretty trashy but given the stack depth and the players I am up against I think this isn't that bad of a call preflop, I also have the BTN so will be last to act.
also the blinds are never going to 3b here unless they wake up with AA/KK so I am not really worried about getting squeezed out of the hand

how wide would you be calling here against these players given the stack depth??
am I just being more hopeful and trying to get lucky??

Pot size 150

FLOP JT3
BB checks
V1 bets out 125
V2-V3 folds
hero ????
reads
At this point when he cbets near PSB i am putting him on JJ-AA,AKhh and know the he loves his hands, I have the Qh so I know he cant have KQhh or AQhh so can only really have 1 flush draw draw (AKhh).
I think that I have 3 cleans outs and maybe 1 dirty out, but given that it is only going to cost 125 and that if I hit my 9 that I will get the 800 rest in the middle in later streets that this should be a simple call given the IO
but how do I work out with IO if it is a simple call??

Hero calls
SB folds

POT 400

TURN 9
V1 checks
Hero bets 305
V1 C/R shoves
Hero calls (800ish total)

River 4

Hero shows Q8 and V1 mucks

after the hand I got a lot of grief for calling 125 for a GS from the rest of the table
some of the question people ask me were
you not afraid of the flush draw?
your a donkey for calling off that much for a GS
and random stuff like that

I didn't respond as I think my logic is sound behind the call and dont think I had to justify my actions but after thinking about it overnight I am not 100% it was the night call
I think my reads where right on about the player and was pretty sure he was going to donk of his stack after such a large Cbet.
I guess the only thing I am not sure about is the preflop call
I tried look around for information about IO but didnt really find the answer I was looking for

The good: Nice reads on Vs and Hero and good discussion of ranges.

The bad: Calling PF with Q8o, especially with a FOS image. Given your ranges as given, I would call with all PPs, SCs, and S1Gs down to about 46s.

The ugly: Flop call with just a gutshot against a V you've ranged to mostly overpairs on a board with lots of action killers that reduce your IOs. Lets do a little simplified EV calc with (admittedly) some major assumptions.

V has one combo of FD, 3 combos of sets, and 15 combos of overpairs. Lets assume, to keep it simple, that V will fold his overpairs if the flush comes in, c/c his sets on FD boards and GII on non FD boards OTT, and barrel his FD whether it hits or not, and barrel all his overpairs and sets on turn blanks.

So we have three outs that get us his stack unless he has a set or AhKh and hits the boat/flush OTR. One out gets us the current pot, but no more (with the same caveats). Everything else, we have to fold turn.

6% of the time, we'll get that miracle non-heart 9. When that happens, we'll have 91.69 equity in an implied pot of $1990, for an EV of $1824.63. That happen 6% of the time, so EV of $109.48, well short of the $125 we're paying OTT, even forgetting all the other possibilities.

2% of the time, we'll hit but be unable to extract. We'll win a pot of 400.

92% of the time, we won't hit and (for simplicity's sake we'll assume) will fold turn. and lose our $125.

(.06*1990)+(.02*400)+(.92*0) = Overall Implied Return
Simplifies to:
109.48+8-0=$117.48. Subtract the $125 that we're paying, and the Implied EV comes to -$7.52.

While that doesn't sound horrible, remember that I simplified out all the times we don't fold turn. If we start paying OTT or he checks a boat/flush OTT and then we hit, it gets really bad.

Garick covered this pretty well.

Preflop, this deep with a villain that has a lot of over pairs and will lose a lot with TPTK+ I would also throw in some unsuited connectors but not always.

On the flop a short hand way of looking at this you probably only get to see one card and you are 11-1 to hit. To call you need to win $125*11 ($1375) at minimum to break even. In reality you need a bit more because hearts might be dirty or cut your profits and villain may have a redraw. There just isn't enough money in the hand for this to be profitable.

The bad news is, they are right, and you did play this hand like a donkey.

The good news is, if they are telling you that at the table, they are also not very good players. Good players would never have let you think you did anything wrong in this hand, because they'd want you to do it again.

Also, Garick, your analysis missed one potentially important thing: there's another player still to act on the flop. There is going to be some small percentage of the time that he check-raises and blows us off our equity, and some other small percentage of the time that he calls with KQ meaning we are drawing dead and will always lose our stack if we hit.

OP, in addition to the fact that you're getting the wrong implied odds on the flop, there's also the problem that you're not even drawing to the nuts. While the chances that your draw is nutted in this case is quite small, when it does happen it creates a massive swing in your EV.

This call pre is so gross. Stop trying to see all the flops

Deepstack play is pretty hard but since this thread is about implied odds...

If your going to play a lot of hands like this you have to be bluffing more frequently in spots/know how to play/be +EV in a lot of marginal spots (and obviously you aren't +EV/always taking the highest EV line in these marginal spots otherwise you wouldn't be posting this or be @ the low stakes) otherwise it's pretty easy for villain's to exploitatively fold vs. you even if they have the top of their range they won't stack off vs. a loose passive.

Obviously vs. some super fish/whales (who can't find the fold button even vs. the biggest nit in the world) you could prolly start playing a slightly more passive style and just call and wait to hit hands as they prolly won't know how to fold the top of their range...

Vs. bad regs/anyone TAG/reggy it's a terrible idea and even flatting ****ty hands like this very deep is a bad idea esp if there are some agro regs to your left who will 3-bet squeeze often.

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@ a super whale table + very deep i can see this being +EV, but no your implied odds are ****

In this particular spot you are spewing but only in very specific circumstances with some hands i can see playing a loose passive style profitably

Fold pre, fold flop, b/c the turn looks good

Everyone above said it all. Not surprising you were down 3 buy ins if you thought Q8o was even a 50/50 hand to call a tight range. Give it some thought.