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Image Problem at 1/2? Image Problem at 1/2?

04-03-2018 , 09:22 AM
That's not very many posts for you and then .. bam, you come to life. Looks to me that you could be a very good contributor in these threads!

I'm not sure what to do with you .. .. You, sir, are not tight when opening (not limping) 75s from 'anywhere'. I assume you occasionally have to turn cards like these over at a showdown? I'm not going to jump into the exact 75 discussion in the other posts because that's not really why you opened the thread.

The issue you may have is somewhat that of a calling station or PAG (Passive-Aggressive)? Anytime someone consistently c/c or 'passively' calls and then 'all of a sudden' Donks or c/r .. and consistently wins at showdown ... will have a tough time getting paid on a lot of Rivers on 'complicated' Boards. Your opponents could be a bit on the passive side as well, not wanting to fight back when you do show aggression.

I saw a crazy stat this week where the online guys were 'touting' that a 52-53% showdown winning percentage was 'great'. If that's the case, then I'm way too tight myself. I may lose 'a lot' of chips at showdown, but I'm guessing my actual winning percentage is higher than that ... which may mean that I'm folding too often.

In the QT hand are you ever c/r the Turn ... like in a pot/shove/polarizing way? Or do you 'only' bet Turn and River when you think you are ahead? Would you ever try for a bluff if you blank the River in that spot? (I'm guessing no, because of the image you have of the other players.)

My catch phrase as of late is 'Win the war, not every battle' and it appears that you may 'never' put your soldiers in real harms way and the table, which I assume is full of regs, knows this. This is not an image 'problem', it's an effective poker image that should be protected.

It's great to want to work on your game but it sounds like you have a pretty good situation that you are describing.

1) You are not tight .. you open QT (and call a 3-bet OOP) and 75.
2) I think you are aggressive when you choose to lead the betting, but I also think your image is that of a passive caller .. until you have a 'winning' hand. I'm willing to bet that you check 'a lot' of Turns when you open with Arag type hands and get called in two spots on the Flop?
3) How much floating do you do when you miss a Flop? Do you always C-bet? How often do you fold on the Turn when you check a Flop (after you open) and then face a bet?

You are describing a well respected image of yourself. I'm not so sure you want to tinker too much, but ...
1) Try to realize your equity on earlier streets even though you may still be drawing. Fold equity is your friend, but it does create larger swings in your stack than you may be used to. Do you ever bust, other than AAvKK or when your run into a set?
2) Dare I say .. Open your range as long as you continue to get those folds when you double/triple barrel.

I like the fact that you study and that you go into a session wanting to 'work on your game', but it does sound like the gift horse is facing your direction. GL

Last edited by answer20; 04-03-2018 at 09:31 AM.
Image Problem at 1/2? Quote
04-03-2018 , 10:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CactusJack
I am in my mid 40s and only play about 300 hours a year of 1/2. I do take the game serious and spend lots of time studying and watching strategy videos. Getting myself ready for a 200 hour challenge in July and think I either have an image leak or some kind of tell.

I present myself at the table like I am a blue collar worker that plays tight and doesn't really know a lot about the game. I very seldom limp and make an effort to nit it up on the button and in the SB where I think my tightness will be more obvious. I tend to play aggressive when involved. I would assume I appear to be pretty TAG these days. I do have a wide opening range that I do not believe is apparent since I go out of my way to not overlimp.

My prob is that I am not getting paid off with big hands on the river. I assume that I should be bluffing more (don't get caught often but most of my bluffs are double barrels on the turn when I opened wide and missed). However, at this level I'm not sure how much I should be bluffing since most people are stations.

2 examples. I open QTs in late pos to $8. Older reg lady 3! To $19 from button. We are $350 effective and I call. Flop is AJ3 with my suit. Check, bet $25, call. Turn is 8. Check, bet $40, call. The river is a K. I lead for $55. She snap folds 2 pair.

I open 57s to $12 from cutoff and younger aggro-ish guy calls on button. $400 effective. Flop A46 rainbow. I lead for $18 and he raises to $42 I call. Turn is a T. Check, bet $50, call. On the turn I am thinking he is strong and plan to check raise river if I hit (prob makes this a fold since I plan to give up if I don't). I bink river, check, bet $65, shove and he tank folds 2 pair. He had about $140 behind.

Old lady said she put me on a straight and he said he thought I had a set. FWIW I didn't show either hand.

After 90 hours this year I am just under $20 an hour. These 2 hands and a couple others tho have really got me thinking. I feel like I am leaving something on the table but still think I am playing pretty well.
my 2 cents worth
I don't think the image you think you present and what you do present are close!

blue collar workers don't play TAG style
they play passive limp call (they are there to blow off steam , have a beer, and see lots of flops cheaply)

also TAG's don't raise and call 3-bets with 5-7

lastly you can go in with a game plan but be ready to adapt and modify it based on game conditions.
Image Problem at 1/2? Quote
04-03-2018 , 01:07 PM
If you are making 20 an hour you a crushing 1-2, I have heard of people making 40/hr but 20 is an excellent win rate. Yes, you probably should be bluffing more. The lady snap folded 2 pair may not have had 2 pair at all and same goes for the other guy. Sometimes, people are capable of making good folds, after all at the lower stakes a check raise all-in does usually mean the nuts, just be happy they value bet the river.
Image Problem at 1/2? Quote
04-03-2018 , 02:11 PM
I am currently a losing player, I blame dailies, but I digress. So you can take my advice with a grain of salt.

I’ve had this problem before, or thought I had a problem. Making the nuts and thinking I deserve more value with the strongest of hands.

The “problem” could be a multitude of things and may not only have to do with your image. Your image sounds perfectly fine. However, you should only ever expect to get max value from competent players with hands that were probably holding equal equity or even more than yours at some point before the river. You’re only going to ever fully get paid off by the second nuts when you hold the first nuts.

So my question for you is how good is your hand reading and player reading ability?

You need to be able to put your opponent on a range of hands that will call and a percentage of how many times that particular opponent is going to call x amount based on their player type. You may have extracted max value on that QTs hand against that specific opponent, based on table dynamics, and that players own two hole cards.

Do not sabotage your own image in order to extract more value from your opponents. Focus on reading their hands more and extracting as much as possible given the circumstance. Hope that helps.
Image Problem at 1/2? Quote
04-03-2018 , 03:10 PM
Quote:
The only time I raise with complete junk pre is in the blinds and when I think table dynamics are good.
Can someone explain this to me? It's one of the things that just makes my mind go blank when I try to explain it to myself.

So we have a trash hand, and we are OOP to most of the table. Are we just trying to steal limpers dead money here? I'm asking because in my experience it almost never works. All it takes is 1 caller which invites a chain cascade of others, because they're 'priced in'.

What do we do on the flop, barring seeing something like a 346r with a 57o? Just turbomuck to any bet if we miss?

What are the table dynamics required for this to work?
Image Problem at 1/2? Quote
04-03-2018 , 03:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by setintostraight
Can someone explain this to me? It's one of the things that just makes my mind go blank when I try to explain it to myself.

So we have a trash hand, and we are OOP to most of the table. Are we just trying to steal limpers dead money here? I'm asking because in my experience it almost never works. All it takes is 1 caller which invites a chain cascade of others, because they're 'priced in'.

What do we do on the flop, barring seeing something like a 346r with a 57o? Just turbomuck to any bet if we miss?

What are the table dynamics required for this to work?
I think he means defending his blind with light 3 bets against potential blind steals. I’d be lost post flop honestly.
Image Problem at 1/2? Quote
04-03-2018 , 03:25 PM
Sorry, but 3! with trash hands like that seems even worse than what I described.

Most low stakes don't operate deep enough to where it's possible to navigate post-flop and we are likely way behind on equity *AND* OOP.

But maybe I'm missing something really obvious (i'm not a very experienced player)
Image Problem at 1/2? Quote
04-03-2018 , 03:32 PM
The basic SB vs BB dynamic includes very wide ranges. So what I’m thinking is it folds to SB and SB could raise with 50% of their range which means BB could 3 bet an even wider range. Not sure if that’s what OP is talking about though.

I’ve never really seen this happen in low stakes cash too. This is mostly a tournament dynamic from what I’m accustomed to. Most players in cash just chop where I’m from when folded all the way to the small blind.
Image Problem at 1/2? Quote
04-03-2018 , 04:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by setintostraight
Can someone explain this to me? It's one of the things that just makes my mind go blank when I try to explain it to myself.

So we have a trash hand, and we are OOP to most of the table. Are we just trying to steal limpers dead money here? I'm asking because in my experience it almost never works. All it takes is 1 caller which invites a chain cascade of others, because they're 'priced in'.

What do we do on the flop, barring seeing something like a 346r with a 57o? Just turbomuck to any bet if we miss?

What are the table dynamics required for this to work?
Because I am bad? Again pretty small sample size as I am still only talking about 2018 and only 90ish hours. After trying it 3 times in 3 different sessions I'd say you are right. Raised twice with 72, both times against 4 limpers. One time I got all in with short stack on flop and sucked out. Other time everyone folded to $19. Third time was K high and I bet flop and check folded turn. I agree its bad. I prob would've tried to 3! Late opener but you convinced me not to. Prob saved me $100s on my next experiment.
Image Problem at 1/2? Quote
04-03-2018 , 04:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Breadfish666
I am currently a losing player, I blame dailies, but I digress. So you can take my advice with a grain of salt.

I’ve had this problem before, or thought I had a problem. Making the nuts and thinking I deserve more value with the strongest of hands.

The “problem” could be a multitude of things and may not only have to do with your image. Your image sounds perfectly fine. However, you should only ever expect to get max value from competent players with hands that were probably holding equal equity or even more than yours at some point before the river. You’re only going to ever fully get paid off by the second nuts when you hold the first nuts.

So my question for you is how good is your hand reading and player reading ability?

You need to be able to put your opponent on a range of hands that will call and a percentage of how many times that particular opponent is going to call x amount based on their player type. You may have extracted max value on that QTs hand against that specific opponent, based on table dynamics, and that players own two hole cards.

Do not sabotage your own image in order to extract more value from your opponents. Focus on reading their hands more and extracting as much as possible given the circumstance. Hope that helps.
I need to get better at thinking about opp hand ranges throughout the hand. I can do it after pretty easy but in the moment not as well as I need to.

When i am on my A game I guess I pick up some basic tells. But usually real obvious ones.

I tried to do it when I wasn't in hands but was overly focused on keeping myself in line.

Thanks for your thoughts.
Image Problem at 1/2? Quote
04-03-2018 , 04:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by answer20
That's not very many posts for you and then .. bam, you come to life. Looks to me that you could be a very good contributor in these threads!

I'm not sure what to do with you .. .. You, sir, are not tight when opening (not limping) 75s from 'anywhere'. I assume you occasionally have to turn cards like these over at a showdown? I'm not going to jump into the exact 75 discussion in the other posts because that's not really why you opened the thread.

The issue you may have is somewhat that of a calling station or PAG (Passive-Aggressive)? Anytime someone consistently c/c or 'passively' calls and then 'all of a sudden' Donks or c/r .. and consistently wins at showdown ... will have a tough time getting paid on a lot of Rivers on 'complicated' Boards. Your opponents could be a bit on the passive side as well, not wanting to fight back when you do show aggression.

I saw a crazy stat this week where the online guys were 'touting' that a 52-53% showdown winning percentage was 'great'. If that's the case, then I'm way too tight myself. I may lose 'a lot' of chips at showdown, but I'm guessing my actual winning percentage is higher than that ... which may mean that I'm folding too often.

In the QT hand are you ever c/r the Turn ... like in a pot/shove/polarizing way? Or do you 'only' bet Turn and River when you think you are ahead? Would you ever try for a bluff if you blank the River in that spot? (I'm guessing no, because of the image you have of the other players.)

My catch phrase as of late is 'Win the war, not every battle' and it appears that you may 'never' put your soldiers in real harms way and the table, which I assume is full of regs, knows this. This is not an image 'problem', it's an effective poker image that should be protected.

It's great to want to work on your game but it sounds like you have a pretty good situation that you are describing.

1) You are not tight .. you open QT (and call a 3-bet OOP) and 75.
2) I think you are aggressive when you choose to lead the betting, but I also think your image is that of a passive caller .. until you have a 'winning' hand. I'm willing to bet that you check 'a lot' of Turns when you open with Arag type hands and get called in two spots on the Flop?
3) How much floating do you do when you miss a Flop? Do you always C-bet? How often do you fold on the Turn when you check a Flop (after you open) and then face a bet?

You are describing a well respected image of yourself. I'm not so sure you want to tinker too much, but ...
1) Try to realize your equity on earlier streets even though you may still be drawing. Fold equity is your friend, but it does create larger swings in your stack than you may be used to. Do you ever bust, other than AAvKK or when your run into a set?
2) Dare I say .. Open your range as long as you continue to get those folds when you double/triple barrel.

I like the fact that you study and that you go into a session wanting to 'work on your game', but it does sound like the gift horse is facing your direction. GL
Appreciate you taking the time to comment.

I think I look tight to the players I am playing with because they aren't very aware and I really didn't get to showdown much during this 3 week period. I need to look at my notes but I'm afraid I considers some to be trivial but considering hat I am asking they are pretty relevant.

I've always that thought i was tight and never was. Now I can just point to my hand range chart and blame it. Before I just lied to myself.

I am starting to see that I need to pick some draws and start semi bluffing with them. It sounds like not just the good ones either. Overs, gut shots and back doors too. I guess I would be balanced because I tend to check raise sets when oop in multi way pots?

Yea I would have a hard time continuing against 2 callers on the flop. Heads up I can barrel but that would be tough. I guess I should be looking to keep going against players with capped ranges and don't like to call off their stacks? Because I'd have to get it in by the river and I know I've done it before but never with good reason.

There are spots where I float, overs with backdoor something in pos I feel OK. I tend to call down with A high against players who have shown a willingness to attack uncontested pots. But pretty rare I guess.

And I prob will post more. Ive been off the grid. Went to great links to find an email password so I could recover my 2+2 password all so I could tell Joey that Barry G interview was great. Figured I'd prep for my summer challenge while I have access. Again, thanks.
Image Problem at 1/2? Quote
04-04-2018 , 10:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai Hulud
Just curious what you recommend opening from the CO then. If 75s doesn't make the cut I'm guessing similar hands like Q8s K7s T9o etc. don't make it. How much is left after cutting the "trash"?
A little late in this reply but I prefer a linear raising range in these loose passive games since we get to showdown quite a bit. Big card hands that beat their calling range or at least don't do bad against it (since we are ip we can afford to have worse range). Open raise to from CO for me looks something like T9s+, K9o+, 22+, Axs, etc. Size is 4bb if all folded to me. Iso range is going to be tigher and bigger card heavy, etc. Part of poker is coming up with your own ranges and being honest with yourself as to how hands are most likely going to go down given the V's, positions, dynamics, etc.
Image Problem at 1/2? Quote
04-04-2018 , 11:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdelore
57s is pretty trashy, especially if they're dropping $1 down the chute for a jackpot or whatever. I'd have to have perfect opponents in the blinds who never bluff and whose fold to cb is extremely high to warrant raising. Also the OP mentioned the BTN was a younger agro-ish guy, making the preflop open a spew.
I will play Devil's advocate. I LOVE opening this hand from HJ-BTN over limpers. But I play sLAG so it fits my image pretty well. It is not a trash hand IMO...it plays very well multi-way and against the right sort of opponents (fit or fold), you can scoop up a lot of dead $ or bluff a ton of flops (not to mention you can bink too). You just need to be careful of top pair type flops as you will be behind almost always. Deeper stacks are important too....I think limping with this hand is better when effective stacks are 150 bb's or below.
Image Problem at 1/2? Quote
04-04-2018 , 11:38 AM
OP, the image you truly want is SLAG when you are actually playing TAG (and vice versa). The best players can change gears as conditions warrant and are extremely difficult to range. Those are the players who are crushing...so do what you need to do to be that way.
Image Problem at 1/2? Quote

      
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