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Old 06-24-2018, 01:16 AM   #1
QuinnthEskimo
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Image construction, -EV lines to increase our overall strategy’s EV

Hi all,

I wanted to start a discussion about image construction and inducing action from our opponents to improve our overall EV.
No specific hands to mention, but any hand examples can be brought up in the comments.
I am curious if there is enough value to be gained from constructing a Loose aggressive fish image by making some big bluffs with air and then reverting to a more typical TAG or LAG style. I feel like I have seen some players do this very effectively who have made some donkey plays, but then seem to get paid every time they have it. If our opponents are able to tell themselves our range is much wider than it is and start paying off our value, I feel like some spewey bluffs gone wrong could be potentially +EV for our overall strategy, assuming we choose our spots really well and we are able to cultivate this image. Let’s say I add some specific combos of air to a usually very tight range, for example I add (J3, 96, 62, Q2) to my UTG open range which is something like 88+, AQ+, KQs, AJs, even though I’m only adding 4 combos to this tight range, if I always show these garbage hands and throw in some 3 barrell bluffs with junk that on there own might have a good chance of working, I could potentially develop an appearance of being able to have “any two cards” and start getting paid off on value more often. Not necessarily reducing my EV with the few poor hands I played

This is just a rough example/idea, I think we’d rather do this sort of thing IP..

I’d love to hear if any one successfully constructs an image that increases their overall EV and what tactics they use to do this. Obviously we would prefer to use hands and lines that aren’t so drastically -EV to do this, so my example might be poor, but I think there is definitely something to be said about encouraging “Gamble” from our opponents.

Thought?
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Old 06-24-2018, 01:32 AM   #2
Nozsr
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Re: Image construction, -EV lines to increase our overall strategy’s EV

Advertising that we are a bad player loses 100% of its value when the recipients leave the table, to be replaced by new Villains.

Makes expensive advertising a poor investment unless we have a good reason to believe anyone will believe it; anyone will let it significantly affect their decisions on future hands: unless they don't leave before we get couple of big hands; and unless our big hands hold up.

Too many if's for me, as we have no control over any of these contingencies.
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Old 06-24-2018, 01:42 AM   #3
Jarretman
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Re: Image construction, -EV lines to increase our overall strategy’s EV

no don't do this
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Old 06-24-2018, 01:48 AM   #4
KnowledgeGod206
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Re: Image construction, -EV lines to increase our overall strategy’s EV

Mixing speculative hands (87, J10, etc) into your UTG raising range if you’re a TAG makes you harder to play against. Mixing absolute trash into your UTG raising range is just a leak.
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Old 06-24-2018, 02:12 AM   #5
QuinnthEskimo
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Re: Image construction, -EV lines to increase our overall strategy’s EV

I do add a few speculative suites connectors to my UTG range, and the example I gave was only trying to illustrate the idea of repping a range that seems to extend to “any two cards” when in reality has only increased by a few combos. I also would not try this OOP but instead would choose spots in position that seem to have a good chance of working on their own. I am curious to know if anyone does construct such images effectively and what sort of spots they might choose.
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Old 06-24-2018, 02:46 AM   #6
Jarretman
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Re: Image construction, -EV lines to increase our overall strategy’s EV

sorry my first post wasn't very illustrative or helpful

What I meant to say was don't do this if you like money; but it's totally fine to do this if you don't like money
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Old 06-24-2018, 03:08 AM   #7
QuinnthEskimo
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Re: Image construction, -EV lines to increase our overall strategy’s EV

That’s alright, I understand what your trying to say.

That you don’t do this because you like money, and don’t know how to manipulate your opponents without lighting it on fire.

Even though there are certain players and/or tables that could be taken advantage of and induced into looser play, you’d rather not think about ways to do that because it hurts your brain.
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Old 06-24-2018, 03:14 AM   #8
Eholeing
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Re: Image construction, -EV lines to increase our overall strategy’s EV

Playing like a whale doesn't give you a whale image, it just makes you a whale

Forget about your utg range, you should be making ****all from there anyway on a full ring table, work on your isolating range from ip when recs limp.

Spoiler:

Last edited by Eholeing; 06-24-2018 at 03:20 AM.
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Old 06-24-2018, 05:13 AM   #9
QuinnthEskimo
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Re: Image construction, -EV lines to increase our overall strategy’s EV

Yes, the UTG example is not something I intend to do. I only meant to convey how a few combos of hands can look like a very wide range to a villain. I agree that any pressure or aggression should be used in position to isolate weak players. Using my UTG range as an example was just easier and more concise than getting into my ranges in position.
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Old 06-24-2018, 06:03 AM   #10
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Re: Image construction, -EV lines to increase our overall strategy’s EV

You can act whaleish while playing pretty standard without blasting with garbage hands. It's mainly physical and verbal. Most players at this level don't remember **** about anything so trying to construct ranges and balance or whatnot is typically irrelevant.
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Old 06-24-2018, 06:29 AM   #11
ZuneIt
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Re: Image construction, -EV lines to increase our overall strategy’s EV

I have concentrated on learned how to read other players & catch their bluffs, along with improving my play OTB & the3/4 seats to the right of the BU & it's worked for me.

After a 2 year hiatus from NL poker, I returned the scene of the crime in late May 2014. I don't remember what the hand was on that 1st night I played, but I'm in seat 3 & he's in 6 & on either the Turn or River, he makes a big bet.

The V is about 30-34 & is wearing dark sunglasses & he leans forward so can he stare right at me. I think he had his head resting on his hand & the arm was propped up with the elbow resting on the table. It was hilarious. I called/scooped the pot.

So I went home with $500+ profit that night, rusty as hell. The game isn't as lucrative as it once was, but it is often enough.

Two nights ago I get 55 in the BB & 5 players have called the $6 straddle in a 1/3NL game. The straddler checks, so 7 way to a Flop: 652

Somebody has to have some of that, so I check. Checks around to the Button who bets $15. Concerned that the other 5 whiffed the flop & BU is on a draw based on his previous play, I raise to $40 & it folds back to BU who calls.

Turn: [$115 raked] 652K

I bet $75 & he calls.

River: [$$265] 652KA

I don't see him backin' into a flush unless he had 1 specific combo: 87 Not when he paid $75 OTT.

So I check, because he loves to attack weakness. He bets $80, I call, he says "I missed"; I scoop.
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Old 06-24-2018, 07:36 AM   #12
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Re: Image construction, -EV lines to increase our overall strategy’s EV

The problem with trying to create an opposite image is that those players that are paying attention will quickly figure out how you normally play. The ones that don't won't be influenced. If you have more questions on this, I suggest reading "The Theory of Poker" in which David Sklansky explains that if you want to "bluff," there's no need to make -EV bluffs. Just making neutral EV moves is enough.

Threads like this rarely go very far before derailing. I'll keep it open for a bit, but reserve the right to close it.
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Old 06-24-2018, 09:12 AM   #13
Garick
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Re: Image construction, -EV lines to increase our overall strategy’s EV

You need a very small player pool to make things like this even theoretically worthwhile. I find that in small pools FE is more valuable and comes up more often than "I can't get my big hands paid off" is negative, so I cultivate the opposite image of being tighter than I actually am if I cultivate an image at all.
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Old 06-24-2018, 09:43 AM   #14
Millnoc
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Re: Image construction, -EV lines to increase our overall strategy’s EV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick View Post
You need a very small player pool to make things like this even theoretically worthwhile. I find that in small pools FE is more valuable and comes up more often than "I can't get my big hands paid off" is negative, so I cultivate the opposite image of being tighter than I actually am if I cultivate an image at all.
I think this is a great point. I’m going to be regging a new, smaller cardroom soon at very routine and specific hours/days of the week. I’m going to try hard to wear rec clothes and represent myself well as long as I can
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Old 06-24-2018, 10:32 AM   #15
Garick
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Re: Image construction, -EV lines to increase our overall strategy’s EV

It's not just rec clothes. It's never showing a bluff unless you have to. It's giving the impression that you are making a nitty fold when you b/f, rather than admitting that you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar, it's making comments about how you hate jacks, etc. etc.
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Old 06-24-2018, 04:23 PM   #16
Shai Hulud
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Re: Image construction, -EV lines to increase our overall strategy’s EV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick View Post
It's not just rec clothes. It's never showing a bluff unless you have to. It's giving the impression that you are making a nitty fold when you b/f, rather than admitting that you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar, it's making comments about how you hate jacks, etc. etc.
Yeah I tend to go in this direction. My games are so freaking nitty lately I make most of my profit just c betting the right board textures and barreling appropriately. I hardly ever get to showdown.

I never show my hand. I just lie about whatever I had if someone asks. Some people making a big bluff display clear relief when their opponent folds. I try to do the opposite. Complain about how nitty they are when they don't call your 7-high busted straight draw (I mean top set). Talk about how much you hate aces.

Had this hand yesterday, semi relevant

8:8 BTN MP opens 20 HJ calls I call.

Flop (60) A8:7:

MP 40 I call.

Turn (140) A8:7:T:

MP x. I 70. He folds AK face up.

LOL. What am I supposed to do with that? Never played with the guy before. He's just a super nit. In reality I'm betting all kinds of hands he beats once he checks turn (T9s, AX clubs, 99, AQ, AJ, 65s, etc).

My point with this hand is I don't know if I can do anything to convince this guy to pay me off with TPTK. And I have air more than sets so I'd rather not try.

Also agree the only players you can really manipulate your image with at all are the ones paying attention, the regs. But they'll figure out your fake LAG game eventually and the recs won't even notice, or they notice but they leave after an hour when they bust or hit and run.

If you really want to appear loose I would just talk a lot and obnoxiously and pretend to be drunk (maybe have a drink ordered you sip from or just drink lots of vodka water). Stack your chips in messy, random size stacks. Show your bluffs when you have them. You don't really need to add garbage hands to do this though. Throw in some light 3 bets, show when they fold, open hands like A4s in EP and barrel good boards then show. They won't understand what you're doing except you didn't have anything. Still I'm skeptical whether this will really help you overall, but I like it better than the "open 32o and bluff with it" plan.

Personally I never show bluffs as it can really anger some people. I guess if you want to tilt them that's fine. Sometimes they rebuy and go to war with you which can be lucrative. Sometimes they just curse at you and leave. For me I prefer for them to think of me as timid and nitty, and I don't want to build acrimony at the table. It might be +EV sometimes to do this in the short term, but it damages your reputation as a player if you're the guy deliberately tilting people and they won't want to play with you long term.

My 2c...
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Old 06-24-2018, 04:26 PM   #17
Shai Hulud
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Re: Image construction, -EV lines to increase our overall strategy’s EV

Sorry that was 8:8. Wish there were a "edit post" feature for Tapatalk use as my computer is broken.

Carry on then.
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Old 06-24-2018, 04:54 PM   #18
MikeStarr
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Re: Image construction, -EV lines to increase our overall strategy’s EV

Shai, I play with tons of nits too but that one hits the top of the nit scale.
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Old 06-24-2018, 06:11 PM   #19
QuinnthEskimo
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Re: Image construction, -EV lines to increase our overall strategy’s EV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai Hulud View Post

You don't really need to add garbage hands to do this though. Throw in some light 3 bets, show when they fold, open hands like A4s in EP and barrel good boards then show. They won't understand what you're doing except you didn't have anything. Still I'm skeptical whether this will really help you overall, but I like it better than the "open 32o and bluff with it” plan.
Yeah this makes a lot of sense. There is no reason to use junk to try and accomplish this when there are so many other hands with reasonable equity to semi-bluff with. I think I probably just need to get better at identifying these good boards and +EV bluffs against nittier opponents and hopefully the recs might assume I’m playing that way against them as well.

Also just being aware of what my image is, is probably more important than trying to manipulate it. As you said, the regs paying attention will likely figure it out anyways. I think I will try shifting gears a little more frequently in my next session and see how it goes. I might re-read super system before I do though.
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Old 06-24-2018, 06:29 PM   #20
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Re: Image construction, -EV lines to increase our overall strategy’s EV

I actually think there's huge merit to image construction. Granted, 2 things to add: (1) I only do this in position for better control of the pot when this backfires and (2) I don't play full time, far from it, most of my sessions are only 3-4 hours and less than once a week. Which incentivizes me to make the most of it

Tabling bluffs is really only targeted towards regs. There's no point against fish because they aren't going to change their strategy much (they call too much in the first place) and your strategy shouldn't involve bluffing them in the first place.

Regs are usually profitable because the biggest difference on their game vs. common fish is that they know when to fold where fish typically call (e.g. top pair). Even if a reg doesn't give you full credit for being loose, he'll at the very least think you're a maniac if you 3bet squeeze and double barrel T6o and take it down. That makes you so much harder to play against to these type players.

When I have done this, opponents have sometimes adjusted immediately and start 3betting or 4bettibg me light when I have already tightened up by ranges.

Pick spots carefully, and in position
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Old 06-24-2018, 06:31 PM   #21
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Re: Image construction, -EV lines to increase our overall strategy’s EV

Quote:
Turn (140) A8:7:T:

MP x. I 70. He folds AK face up.

LOL. What am I supposed to do with that?
Realistically? Get a table change or wait it out until he leaves.

Quote:
If you really want to appear loose I would just talk a lot and obnoxiously and pretend to be drunk (maybe have a drink ordered you sip from or just drink lots of vodka water). Stack your chips in messy, random size stacks
This. People underestimate the value of meta-gaming. That doesn't mean your 'read' on an old guy is that he always folds aces on a one-tone flop is a good read. It just means that by being friendly and talking a lot (combining truthful and deceiving information) can really unhinge a lot of players, especially the fish who will gladly try to keep up conversation, but lose track of the hand action and betting and inevitably do something stupid.

Negreanu is probably one of the better examples of this from his earlier days.
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Old 06-24-2018, 06:43 PM   #22
Broomcorn's Uncle
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Re: Image construction, -EV lines to increase our overall strategy’s EV

Don't riffle your chips. I'm such a spaz that I've never learned to riffle chips, so my occasional attempts make me look like (an even bigger) fish.

If I'm in a place I've never been, I do try to look bumbly at first. Not over the top, but weird stack sizes, having to be told it's my turn to act, "how much is it to me?"

Think about how many threads on here begin with: "no real reads, but looked liked a fish."

Agreed that it's a temporary image, but occasionally pays off.
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Old 06-24-2018, 07:56 PM   #23
johnnyBuz
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Re: Image construction, -EV lines to increase our overall strategy’s EV

Quote:
Originally Posted by KnowledgeGod206 View Post
Mixing speculative hands (87, J10, etc) into your UTG raising range if you’re a TAG makes you harder to play against. Mixing absolute trash into your UTG raising range is just a leak.
For averaging a half a post per year I’m sure glad you decided to speak up here win this banger.

/thread
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Old 06-24-2018, 09:04 PM   #24
Garick
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Re: Image construction, -EV lines to increase our overall strategy’s EV

That's some dedication. Had that account since Aug 2011, started posting on it yesterday.
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Old 06-24-2018, 10:03 PM   #25
DumbosTrunk
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Re: Image construction, -EV lines to increase our overall strategy’s EV

This situation proved to be profitable for me exactly once. I was chip leader at the table and raised MP to $15 with Q8o. BB called with 10-10. I triple-barreled a Q-high flop and showed (I was good). One OMC commented disdainfully about my raise.

The very next hand I was dealt KK and raised to $25. Another OMC whom I had called out earlier for letting the action proceed ahead of him before acting goes AI for $200. I hold aginst his QQ. That was a nice hand.
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