the nfd is backup equity when considering an LP raise since a standard open from that spot is KQo. If you don't open KQo from that pos 100% you are playing below ev

A5s is a terrible fold in this example, it's ahead of the range that profitably opens from the CO, has a blocker and NFD value, folding is a losing play, so stop advocating losing plays and you won't have these threads

I have no idea about the other 2 hands, but T8s is definitely a call

KJo is interesting. It's borderline. I'm inclined to roll a 3 sided dice behind my back and 3 bet fold or call equally often

Read "Elements of Poker" by Tommy Angelo. He gets irritated that people say position is important, because it is MORE IMPORTANT than that.

From Element 31: "What about the discounted price to see the flop from the small blind? Doesn’t that make it a bargain? Not the way I see it. From the small blind, I am charged a fee for something I wouldn’t want for free. I have to pay money to see the flop, and by doing so, I am guaranteeing that someone is going to have position on me every street this hand. The alternative, which is to fold before the flop and get ready for my button, is much more appealing."

So you want to pay $10 more to play the rest of the hand OOP? It's simply a losing proposition.

If you refuse to fold, counter-attack with an aggressive re-raise. With CO's wide range and button only calling, you'll take down the pot a high percentage of the time without a fight.


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absolutely there is a value to position which obviously incentivizes us to add some amount of equity but that can also be calculated

it's simply a question of the math and what being OOP subtracts from our total equity, and obviously we want to have more implied odds than direct odds

that is why KJo is borderline and T8s is not. You would rather call with T8s.

overcoming the boundary between your direct odds and being out of position takes a lot of skill, you can certainly have 33% equity (in which case you should call even if you knew the openers range was TT+ only), it takes a lot of skill to actually realize that equity

so call and get better at the game, don't fold and be a dead rake hole at a live table

and lol, you are talking about the small blind as opposed to the big blind, which is a whole 'nother ballgame

the odds AND position are so much worse that you can fold SB about twice as often as you fold the BB, all three of those hands might be standard folds from the SB

but it's the exact opposite.

IMA is the the Hero we deserve but not the hero we need right now

The fact that you are calling GTO profitable rather than unexploitable tells me you lack the basic understanding of what GTO is.

We already had a fantastic COTM thread about GTO and why applying it at LLSNL is a mistake.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...heory-1478991/

I don't know why I took the time to reply to your post and dig up this link. You clearly think you know more than everyone here and aren't about to listen to anything that questions your understanding of the game. I guess this is for all the people who want to come here to learn how to play LLSNL and hopefully don't follow you down your rabbit hole.

this is obv a GTO poast cuz I have zero clue how to respond...I think I'll just fold to this quote?

yo slim...bin savin this one for a while but i think its good 4 a lot o poasts in this here thread

Y u no mention effective stacks?

No... if you just fold, that's an exploitable strategy.

You're supposed to... uh, nevermind. I have no idea either.

Interesting post actually.

I'm not trolling here, but I would adjust your cliffs to:
the fold pre advice here is slightly overdone

Part of this is from almost all posts are of hands people lost, even when results aren't given. People answering posts want to feel correct so it's very common to mention "fold pre" in any ~borderline preflop action.

Another part of "fold pre" IMO is that many posters are beginners or players who struggle a bit and for those players with limited skill it actually is better to "fold pre" in most marginal situations

haha, this thread pissed me off to the point that I was offended

here you have a math guy telling you not to use the math in poker

poker is a math game so either this guy is a terrible mathematician or a terrible poker player or both

first he gives you a first grade lesson on GTO, then tells you it does not apply to poker, and if someone says it does, you should ask him to prove it

well, it's obviously not "provable" since most of the relationships are asymptotic and would take a computer years of brute force to approximate, so it's an easy way of saying he can't be proven wrong

he's obviously completely wrong, the math is the easiest way to beat the lowest levels of poker, it's only when you are playing others who are rock solid in the math that you have to deviate

that whole thread is pure nonsense and should have been erased, play good solid standard (GTO) poker at LLSNL and you will be at 5/10 soon

I'm not sure if 6x is standard at 1/2, I think I figured out to raise to 9 or 10, but the OP's question was about our general calling baselines. obv we can play tighter if villains raise too much, so KJo might be a fold to that sizing, as well as T7s, A5s is still a call

but anyone can take their time off the table and figure out what they should call with, it's just math

I'm indifferent to these responses while Youz guyz gettin bruffed with any two poasts.

Not sure if it's been linked yet but you may want to look at this post from the FAQ: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...dvice-1523264/

guess there is a reason why that thread is closed

why the hell are you folding AQo UTG? that's so 2007

I agree with that
imo it creates a very bad habit of avoiding all marginal/tough decisions by just taking the easiest way out, which usually is highly overbetting/overraising your nuttish hands to decrease the amount of streets/decisions one might have to face, valuebet/folding all your strong but not nutted hands without thinking, and ofc take an incredibly nitty approach esp oop.

approaches like that might actually be slightly profitable in practice, but nowhere near optimal. to really get better you actually need to work off the tables, which is not just posting your opinion on topics on 2p2 about how you played the hand for the last 10 years, but to actually do some math and see how ranges play against each other. and very often, folding is just a mistake, and it´s grossly overdone here to oversimplify your actions, esp in blind defence situations.

Folding marginal hands OOP to raises does NOT mean you are strictly playing AQ, AK, and large pocket pairs PF. To be blunt, that's a ridiculous leap to make. Where did you get the idea that people recommend folding middle pocket pairs in those situations? Where did you get the idea that people are consistently folding suited connectors in position? Posters here are not telling you to play anywhere near as tight as you suggest.

And the situations you are talking about aren't even marginal so your post actually demonstrates why there is so much "fold PF" advice. That advice is so common because so many players overvalue their hands and make a ton of bad PF calls when they should be folding.

Personally, I get tired sometimes of people complaining there is too much fold PF advice (until I realize that this is one reason why the games are so good; people don't want to fold when they should). Other posters have made the same complaint you have and get mad when people say to fold PF. But the fold PF advice is mostly just posters that are pointing out fishy calls. If you post a hand and make a fishy call, posters shouldn't just ignore that.

I do think there is too much of an emphasis on ABC play on the forum sometimes but when I read the hands that newer posters post, time after time I'll see a bad PF call. This happens at the tables too. In hand after hand I see people making even horrific calls PF. So it's not surprising that the advice to fold is so common here.

It's 1-2 NL. Opponents aren't going to read you well AND do a good job of exploiting your weaknesses. They are mostly just playing their own two cards. Even the OMC nit gets paid off at this level because people love to call. Opponents can't even get the most basic of fundamentals right (like folding trash PF) and you expect them to do things well that are much harder? Why?

You're in the minority in a forum full of serious players. At a cardroom you would be safely in the majority because losing players like to see the flop and cardrooms are full of losing players that didn't drive to the casino to fold.

One more thing: In the situations you are talking about, 3-betting could easily be better than calling. Folding is definitely better. Yet time and time again people want to make the worst decision of all 3 options and call. If you're going to the casino so you can just call, call, call before the flop, then you will be playing like your fishy opponents.

Even weak 1-2 NL players will have a PF strategy of folding the bad hands and trying to get in cheap with the hands they think are at least marginal. They may be even looser because they have a worse understanding of hand values than you do, but their typical game might be more similar to yours than you think. So you'll have to ask yourself where your edge is against these players. Many people do not play as well postflop as they think. As a result, the answer to that is not as simple as thinking you have some kind of massive edge after the flop. And postflop play is harder if you make too many mistakes PF.

Vv nice post, Steve quad 7