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Old 02-11-2013, 03:09 PM   #26
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

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Originally Posted by iLikeCaliDonks;37119619[B
]Just shove it in,[/B] since we have no real reads.
why?
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:23 PM   #27
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

Pre flop, they both have a very wide range.
I assume they are at least some what competent.
This means the CO should be opening
55+, any two face cards, A7+ and maybe a few more hands. I would assume the BTN has a range that is something similar. Maybe take out a few of the weaker Aces, since they are more likely to be dominated. We can also add in a few weaker hands into the BTN's calling range since he will be in position the whole time.

Once we 3! and get called, their ranges should ?? be mostly PP's 88-JJ (maybe QQ), and AQs/AK based on how most people at this level play. They may also get sticky with some sort of 87s type hand if they are trying to get creative, but for the pre flop sizing most people will lay it down.

On the flop, you will get folds from 88+99, maybe QQ but I doubt it, and AK/AQ. If they fold 24 combos 88/99 call with 6 combos of TT/JJ, 50% with QQ and fold all combos of AK/AQ this should be a profitable shove.
As long as they are not OMC types, I think they don't often show up here with KK/AA after just flatting the 3! pre flop. It looks pretty committing by you and I feel they would be happy to get it in pre with those hands.
I think I just shove.

Then again, I'm a spewy type player.
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:25 PM   #28
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

Shoving is the best play. We have an spr of 1, overs/GS, we get better to fold, the act/size of the bet should be perceived as an overpair. Perfect conditions to manipulate the ranges.
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:30 PM   #29
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

I'd probably shove this if it were a HU pot, against 2 players it feels wrong for some reason.
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:31 PM   #30
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

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Originally Posted by iLikeCaliDonks View Post
Shoving is the best play. We have an spr of 1, overs/GS, we get better to fold, the act/size of the bet should be perceived as an overpair. Perfect conditions to manipulate the ranges.
What ranges are those?

IMO this flop smacks villians and we are never getting folds with so much money already in the pot. check/fold and move on.
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:41 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by iLikeCaliDonks View Post
Shoving is the best play. We have an spr of 1, overs/GS, we get better to fold, the act/size of the bet should be perceived as an overpair. Perfect conditions to manipulate the ranges.
I really disagree here. We get 88 and 99 to fold but that's about it. If *either* of the opponents have something else, we get a call. And the only calls we want are AQ and KQ.

If the villains are loose enough to have a wide range here, they are loose enough to call with a small piece of the flop. IOW, QJ is not folding because we are repping AA.

Any hand that is behind here is way behind (except KQ) and I don't think we are ever getting bluffed.

We should just hope for the free card. Our 3bet check looks as much like a trap as it does like weakness.
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:43 PM   #32
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Btw - if it checks around, I'd consider betting any turn brick
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:44 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sommerset View Post
What ranges are those?

IMO this flop smacks villians and we are never getting folds with so much money already in the pot. check/fold and move on.
We have air, board hits there ranges, but over pairs have fe vs there ranges. We shove they fold, if we called we got a back up plan. But most of their ranges should fold to a shove. Especially a hand like KJ.

If we can get better to fold and have some equity if called. Those are situations we want as a decent player. Make our opponents make a mistake.

Last edited by iLikeCaliDonks; 02-11-2013 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:47 PM   #34
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

IMO you are dreaming if you think your avg 1/2 player is ever floating away top pair in a 3 bet pot 100bb eff
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:48 PM   #35
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

If you check the hand is over for you. You lose all credibility to fold out better. Only thing a delay cbet does is when the pot with the best hand most of the time. We villains absolutely have air.

I also disagree, that people won't fold QJ/KJ here.
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:50 PM   #36
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

It all depends on the flop doesn't it?

I am bet/folding good flops and check/folding bad flops.

I am check/folding this flop 100% of the time.
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:52 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by iLikeCaliDonks View Post
If you check the hand is over for you. You lose all credibility to fold out better. Only thing a delay cbet does is when the pot with the best hand most of the time. We villains absolutely have air.

I also disagree, that people won't fold QJ/KJ here.
The reason I would consider a delayed Cbet is we can still fold out the 88, 99, AT type hands. And having the flop check through caps the range we are playing against.

But I don't see how you think someone could call PF with KJ only to fold on a jack high board. He's either folding pre if he's a half decent player or calling off a PSB to close the action.
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:52 PM   #38
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

J10x is a good flop for me if I have AK vs weak players.
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:56 PM   #39
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

the hand can be over for us- thats fine. We don't need to win every pot.

As to whether people fold i guess theres nothing to do but agree to disagree, but I will say that I think its silly to assume your avg 1/2 rando will hit the best card in his hand in a 3 bet pot and fold a psb.
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:57 PM   #40
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

Ohhh, AKo, that's why Check/Call wasn't an option. I check/fold here. Nobody folds to me ever. I ship it, they call, their pocket 6s are good.
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Old 02-11-2013, 04:22 PM   #41
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

In 3bet pots? C'Mon man, fish no what 3bet pre shove flop is.

You can't possibly play that many 3bet pots in llsnl to think you have no fe in them.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:32 PM   #42
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

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Originally Posted by iLikeCaliDonks View Post
In 3bet pots? C'Mon man, fish no what 3bet pre shove flop is.

You can't possibly play that many 3bet pots in llsnl to think you have no fe in them.
The key thing you keep omitting here is 100BB effective.

And no, I dont play that many 3 bet pots at these stack sizes because our opponents at this level tend to always have strong hands when they enter into them.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:36 PM   #43
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

I guess it comes down to perception. I would rather force my opponents into mistakes. Go ahead and c/f.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:37 PM   #44
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

Probably old, but I would shove everything that's TP+ and/or combo draws. I would check/fold the 55-99 (but odds we have that is <5%) and/or air.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:39 PM   #45
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

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Originally Posted by iLikeCaliDonks View Post
In 3bet pots? C'Mon man, fish no what 3bet pre shove flop is.

You can't possibly play that many 3bet pots in llsnl to think you have no fe in them.
This is lighting money on fire.

Players in these games typically make the mistake of calling too much, even when they *know* they're beat and they *TELL* you that they know they're beat, they still call. You aren't quite at zero FE, but you don't have very much.

Added to that, you just got your 3-bet flatted by two players ... this flop smacks their ranges in the face harder than chris brown. You're getting looked up here all day.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:48 PM   #46
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

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Originally Posted by iLikeCaliDonks View Post
I guess it comes down to perception. I would rather force my opponents into mistakes. Go ahead and c/f.
But you aren't doing this. You are allowing them to play perfectly
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:49 PM   #47
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You guys make very valid points. Given the situation, we shouldn't be 3betting preflop anyway. You have to be able to view your entire line before you make it. A 3bet, c/f line is not very good planning. On a J10x flop.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:55 PM   #48
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

Hi ANL,

0.2*150 + 0.8*(0.25*300 - 0.75*150) = 0
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:57 PM   #49
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

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Originally Posted by iLikeCaliDonks View Post
You guys make very valid points. Given the situation, we shouldn't be 3betting preflop anyway. You have to be able to view your entire line before you make it. A 3bet, c/f line is not very good planning. On a J10x flop.
Cause we know what the flop is going to be.

You're still the worst poster here.
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Old 02-11-2013, 06:06 PM   #50
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

*Grunch*

A lot of factors here but with info given, short answer is this is a shove for me.

Edit: just saw we have AKo=yeah shove flop

Last edited by crsseyed; 02-11-2013 at 06:11 PM.
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