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Old 02-11-2013, 04:30 AM   #1
AintNoLimit
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If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

Without being able to pull out calculators/other, how many players in real time (at the table) would...

Bet/call the flop
Bet/fold the flop
Shove the flop
Check/fold the flop

1-2 blind 100bb eff

All players are routine, average players for the limit, maybe 30 year old locals who show up after leaving their jobs or businesses several times a week to play. No histories.

V1 opens to 10 in CO, V2 flats BTN,

SB folds, Hero 3 bets to $50 in BB, both V call.

FLOP Jd Th 4d

Hero ($150) Pot ~151 Hero?
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Old 02-11-2013, 04:33 AM   #2
Nocturnal_Joker
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

Am I missing something or do we plan on playing this hand blind?
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Old 02-11-2013, 04:33 AM   #3
daveMASS
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

hand? or is this an exercise?
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Old 02-11-2013, 04:47 AM   #4
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

Do we have ANY equity in this hand at all?

50 was WAY too much if you are doing this with any 2 cards. I like making it 35... that way if 2 call (we hope they dont) the pot has about 100 in it after rake. This gives us an option to lead for 60 and check/fold rest of hand. If the play fails we are only down 1/2 a BI and have to adjust + chip up.

It's really nice to have good reads on your opponents to pull this play off. I make this play maybe once or twice in an 8 hour session and it's very read/board specific. It's just REALLY hard to make droolers fold their 1 pair and impossible to make them fold a flush draw here... so....ya.

As played, assuming you completely whiffed the flop. I say just check/fold. The play didn't work and if you shove all in, don't be suprised if you get snap called by top pair or a flush draw. I never count on these 1/2 stations to fold.
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Old 02-11-2013, 04:53 AM   #5
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

villain dependant/hand dependant so impossible to say

if we're playing a standard 1/2 table that is very call-happy and fishy my 3b range is just going to be a standard AA-TT + AK and ill tighten that up depending on how much FE i have

with the range i described above, im shoving AA-TT and c/f AK
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:43 AM   #6
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

Ugh. There really aren't "average" players in a lot of these games. There are a lot of common traits, but you've got a variety of stations, aggros, gamblers, nits, spewtards and donkeys. Each type has their own quirks and likely responses to a 3-bet like this. It's usually not too hard to figure out what each player is.

Against truely randoms, I assume that they're stations that'll call any and every bet that I make, leaving me with zero FE until I profile them. Sometimes this only takes a hand or two.

With 100bb stacks and calling stations I'm not raising any worse that TT here, especially OOP.

Flop is impossible to say without knowing your hand. We're obviously not folding JJ or TT on this board, but leading or donk-shoving with AK is lighting money on fire.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:48 AM   #7
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

The correct answer is bet $20-30 dollars on the flop, and I'm not even remotely joking.

Of the answers listed

check/fold>>bet/call>>bet/fold>>>>>shove
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Old 02-11-2013, 06:10 AM   #8
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

If we're squeezing light I think we can raise a bit smaller for the same effect. Definitely 40, maybe even 35. That also leaves us more room to work postflop, here we've just got one PSB behind and a trivial decision for villains who would probably be correct to call any bet with their entire range.
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Old 02-11-2013, 06:44 AM   #9
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

I check 100% of my range here thats not draws.
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Old 02-11-2013, 06:50 AM   #10
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

Quote:
if we're playing a standard 1/2 table that is very call-happy and fishy my 3b range is just going to be a standard AA-TT + AK and ill tighten that up depending on how much FE i have

with the range i described above, im shoving AA-TT and c/f AK
If I'm allowed to look at my hand preflop, then pretty much this, though I'd probably add AQ as well.

If I'm squeezing with ATC preflop, then against 2 complete unknowns I guess off the top of my head I'd shove any 2p, set, jack, any FD, or any OESD and c/f everything else (with 2 unknown players behind you and a PSB left I see little reason to make a smaller bet or to c/c, but I'm open to arguments for these actions, especially since this is such a weird spot readless), but the question is pretty moot because I would never squeeze ATC here at 1/2 without reads; not everyone is positionally aware enough, nor sufficiently willing to fold.

I think the only way to generate a compelling answer to this post is to assign them preflop calling ranges, then flop calling ranges, then calculate how often one of both of them will call a shove based on these ranges; from there we can easily solve for how much equity we need to profitably shove, and assuming we aren't taking balance or metagame considerations into account our flop shoving range has pretty much constructed itself. I thought about doing all of this but since you explicitly frowned upon it in your OP I'm not going to put in the effort. I think "no stoving lol!" is a pretty silly stipulation considering the point of this forum is to discuss strategy in more depth than you could at the table so that you'll know what to do when the situation arises; are you just trying to conduct an opinion poll to know how other players play so you can make better assumptions?
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Old 02-11-2013, 06:53 AM   #11
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluegrassplayer View Post
I check 100% of my range here thats not draws.
on a board with a FD and SD?
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Old 02-11-2013, 07:09 AM   #12
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

C/F the flop.

We tried to squeeze and are met with strong resistance by players who usually don't call $50 3-bets pre, i.e. may not see what we were trying to do. Besides, the flop texture has 2 cards in the playing zone and multiple draws. Betting = burning more $.

My assumption is we have ATC and missed the flop.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:45 AM   #13
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

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Originally Posted by samo View Post
C/F the flop.

We tried to squeeze and are met with strong resistance by players who usually don't call $50 3-bets pre, i.e. may not see what we were trying to do. Besides, the flop texture has 2 cards in the playing zone and multiple draws. Betting = burning more $.

My assumption is we have ATC and missed the flop.
I agree with all of the above if the bolded part is true.
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:22 PM   #14
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

I dont like this hand at all.
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:33 PM   #15
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This is a bad flop to cbet - especially into 2 players.

If you have AK/AQ, I'd check and try to hit.

If you have JJ/TT just shove, since you barely have any FE.

AA, KK and QQ are the hands where there's really a question.
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:39 PM   #16
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

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Originally Posted by Nocturnal_Joker View Post
Am I missing something or do we plan on playing this hand blind?
Just woke up, sorry. We have AKo. Guess it would be kinda cool to do it with a blank range of no pairs, but no, AKo.
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:45 PM   #17
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

i'd just c/f. so many players play so passively pre that they are not even 4betting KKs some of the time. that coupled with the terrible board texture would think a bet would be called a high percentage of the time.

edit: just saw we have AK. originally thought we had atc. with AK I'm just shipping to maximize on our fe. possibly could get decent made hands to fold, putting us on KKs or AAs
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:06 PM   #18
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this flop kinda smacks fishy/calling-station villains raise/call a 3bet range. I'm sticking it in with any KQ, 89, diamond draw, OP, or AJ at this point, even though I may be getting it in bad. It all depends on my hand, but I dont think b/f is an option here with $150 pot and eff. stack of $151. Pot is so bloated at this point. If my hand is horribad here because i just squeezed with shytty hand to try and win pf, then I could c/f here. Whats you hand btw?
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:31 PM   #19
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

Check fold. This flop hits their ranges way too often. I'm assuming u have air here. Just 3bet pre for value like 1010+, ak+ and sometimes aq. U can widen ur 3bettig value range to hands like aj or 99 depending on how light villain is raising but generally 3betting pre with trash is spew (I've had to learn that the hard way many many times)
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:35 PM   #20
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

Just saw your hand. I think either shipping it to maximize fold equity or check folding is best. If u call a shove ur getting 2:1 so may as well ship to get fold equity. I figure u have 7 outs a lot of the time (gut shot plus one of your kickers) or 10 outs or even the best hand if they're on a draw and u can get their to fold hands like 99 or a10. Shippig and folding is pretty close though especially since ur up against 2 villains on a super wet board with probably little fold equity
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:37 PM   #21
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

I like ur 3bet sizing pre. I normally 3bet pre to 45-55 here as well. It's designed to get it heads up, builds a pot, u can apply more pressure post even if u miss, etc. it's mainly to isolate though
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:50 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slimshady1999 View Post
Just saw your hand. I think either shipping it to maximize fold equity or check folding is best. If u call a shove ur getting 2:1 so may as well ship to get fold equity. I figure u have 7 outs a lot of the time (gut shot plus one of your kickers) or 10 outs or even the best hand if they're on a draw and u can get their to fold hands like 99 or a10. Shippig and folding is pretty close though especially since ur up against 2 villains on a super wet board with probably little fold equity
I just saw your hand too, OP. I'm going with this line probably and ready to reload if I brick. Is your A or K a diamond?
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Old 02-11-2013, 02:04 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slimshady1999 View Post
I like ur 3bet sizing pre. I normally 3bet pre to 45-55 here as well. It's designed to get it heads up, builds a pot, u can apply more pressure post even if u miss, etc. it's mainly to isolate though
I actually don't like the 3 bet for this reason. If we get called, we have no good moves on the flop. It's already 3 handed anyway...
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Old 02-11-2013, 02:10 PM   #24
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

I dont see how you can bet/fold here. I think check/fold is probably best. Against 1 V I would consider shoving more often but not into 2.
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:04 PM   #25
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Re: If i squeezed and two called, hmmmm

Just shove it in, since we have no real reads.
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