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Old 03-18-2019, 12:26 PM   #26
gobbledygeek
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Re: I simply do not know how to play AK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RottPhiler View Post
How do you manage this? I buyin for the max 167bb in my 1/3 games, and often I'm up over 300bbs within an hour. At some point, you're going to be above 100bbs, do you rack up and leave then? If not how do you play AK then, is the real question.
Yes, that's a fair question, and one I often had of shortstacking strategies.

I simply BI (and maintain) a topped up 66bb stack. Once I double up, I will look for tables that have smaller effective stacks on average (or perhaps only contain big stacks of players that I'm not overly concerned with).

But even if I still end up at deeper at deep tables it doesn't change how I play AK. Even though my strategy overall has slightly been tweaked over the years, there is one common thing I've always maintained (which not everyone agrees with), which is if a raise is unlikely to thin the field then there's not a whole heckuva lotta reason to raise in the first place (I realize this is a controversial statement, but I've always stood by it).

To bring it back more to OP, it's something he should at least consider. This idea of always just blindly raising it and then somehow thinking he should be able to appropriately navigate the minefield OOP in difficult SPR / while offering good IO bloated pots is a very dangerous strategy for the less experienced (at the very least).

GcluelessshortstackingnoobG
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Old 03-19-2019, 06:54 AM   #27
Shai Hulud
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Re: I simply do not know how to play AK.

FFS do not listen to GG. I know he means well but if your goal is to actually become a competent poker player who can navigate complex post-flop situations expertly, crush games, and move up in stakes, as opposed to learning to grind out a few BB an hour limp/reraising AK and buying in short to dumb down your decisions I would take a hard pass on his approach.

The answer to problems in your game you have from being a nit is not more nittery.

And to be clear, when GG says his trademark "not everyone agrees with me" what he really means is "virtually nobody agrees with me".
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Old 03-19-2019, 11:29 AM   #28
gobbledygeek
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Re: I simply do not know how to play AK.

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Originally Posted by Shai Hulud View Post
FFS do not listen to GG. I know he means well but if your goal is to actually become a competent poker player who can navigate complex post-flop situations expertly, crush games, and move up in stakes, as opposed to learning to grind out a few BB an hour limp/reraising AK and buying in short to dumb down your decisions I would take a hard pass on his approach.

The answer to problems in your game you have from being a nit is not more nittery.

And to be clear, when GG says his trademark "not everyone agrees with me" what he really means is "virtually nobody agrees with me".
OP doesn't sound like he's doing too good taking the approach he's taking now, and yet everyone else's answer to that is "keep doing what you're doing"? I'm giving him another option.

Gbuthe,andyou,candowhateveryoulike,Idon'treallycar eG
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Old 03-19-2019, 01:38 PM   #29
StinkHolePatrol
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Re: I simply do not know how to play AK.

At active tables where raises are typically getting called in 3-4+ spots it's best to limp/raise AK from EP and even as late as middle position.

If you got AK late position and there are limpers in front of you just blast it to like 12x the bb.

At least this way if you head into a bloated pot you have position. If you whiff it will be checked to you and you can at least see a 4th card where as you'd only get to see the flop from EP if you c/f.


If your table is limp happy and active and the chances of a limp raise are low then you just need to open huge from EP and accept the fact that you may get no action. Winning the blinds is a better alternative then fighting 4 players OOP for a bloated pot.

On active tables I open huge all my premiums from EP or limp raise. And huge = 12x minimum up to 20x.
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Old 03-19-2019, 05:22 PM   #30
RottPhiler
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Re: I simply do not know how to play AK.

Lol at opening 12x and 20x bb, double lol at limp re-raising AK, and triple lol at winning the blinds with AK being a good outcome. Channeling our inner OMC today, are we?
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Old 03-19-2019, 05:29 PM   #31
BDHarrison
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Re: I simply do not know how to play AK.

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Originally Posted by Pensfan View Post
I'm a nit, and I know it, but even I feel like a bit of a dumbass when I fold AK preflop, but I'm getting killed with it. A bit of back story I mostly game up playing last year and haven't played much this year, but in 6 sessions I've managed to get felted every time. I just run like garbage. Go me.

I feel like if I'm not willing to get into big pots with AK pre then I really shouldn't play, but I'm donking off with it, I think.

How do you play AK in your typical 1/3 live game where opening it to $15 from EP nets you the typical 4-5 callers and the flop is 3 6 9?
This depends on how they play post-flop. If they call down with TPWK or draws too much, that means I don't need to get as much money into the pot preflop to get them to play for most of their stacks. If you make it 10 preflop, bet 30 on the flop when you hit and get two callers, bet 100 on the turn and ship it in on the river, you can stack someone who has 300 in front of them, but you risk less and can more easily get away when they have you beat. The alternative is to pick a raise-sizing that makes it more easy to GII on the turn, which means something more like 20 than 15.

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What about when a loose player raises, do you three bet with it? If you do what do you do on a similar ragged flop as above?
This basically depends on how much they respect my raises and if my 3bet will get the hand heads up. I've spent some time at my local casino cultivating a table image that demands respect.

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What about when OMC three bets before it gets to you? Ok to fold?
If he's a true OMC, I've been known to fold AKo to a single raise from the guy who limps with QQ.

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How about when you actually hit an A or K on the flop, if it's not a suited or connected flop do you play it like the nuts? Are you willing to get it in against all but the tightest of players on a flop of A Q 7?
I sometimes check AK when I flop TPTK. Of course, I sometimes check the nuts on the flop, so you could say I play it like the nuts.

Quote:
When you are a nit you don't play many hands to begin with and firing AK into the muck pre flop make you feel like the only hands you will play is AA and KK (and probably get those beat). All I know is I may be getting too results oriented, but I'm bleeding chips with AK and it is more than likely that I just don't know how to play it.
I've found that tighter players can sometimes make more money by under-repping their hand, so a nit should play AK more passively than a LAG and not everyone is cut out to play a LAG style. I play a mixed strategy that involves usually raising AK preflop but sometimes limping and not always limp-reraising when I get raised.

Some books suggest being less aggressive with AK against loose players. For example NLHE:T&P advises to avoid big preflop pots with unpaired cards like AK (p185-186) and maybe waiting until the flop to see if you make a pair before being aggressive in loose games.

The question you should ask yourself is who you can win a big pot off of with a hand like TPTK. I've played in games where getting it in with a hand like that for 100BB is suicide, but playing small pot poker allows you to grind people down. I've played in games where you want to swing for the fences and try to stack someone with those hands. I've always been more of a read-and-react player who lets the game come to him rather than someone who tries to impose his will on the table and get them to lose to my preferred strategy.
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Old 03-19-2019, 06:54 PM   #32
Pensfan
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Re: I simply do not know how to play AK.

Again, I appreciate the replies. Thank you.
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Old 03-20-2019, 11:37 AM   #33
DannyAIC
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Re: I simply do not know how to play AK.

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Originally Posted by Pensfan View Post
I mean, I get it, but I'm not sure me loving or hating the hand changes the outcome. I do admit to looking at it and thinking "****, I have to play this and I'm gonna lose money".
This is a horrible mentality. It puts you on tilt before you've even played the hand. I used to think this way about KJ. (I lost in many weird ways with this hand, including one time me predicting the next card that was gonna bust my KJ), and I never won at borgata on saturday morning, so I dreaded playing in the morning cause I was cursed.

Except for this last morning session at borgata where I won big
Except now I can win money with KJ

It was once I stopped believing that nonsense that the "curse" was broken. Mindset is a lot.
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Old 03-20-2019, 12:42 PM   #34
tmo1120
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Re: I simply do not know how to play AK.

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Originally Posted by DannyAIC View Post
This is a horrible mentality. It puts you on tilt before you've even played the hand. I used to think this way about KJ. (I lost in many weird ways with this hand, including one time me predicting the next card that was gonna bust my KJ), and I never won at borgata on saturday morning, so I dreaded playing in the morning cause I was cursed.

Except for this last morning session at borgata where I won big
Except now I can win money with KJ

It was once I stopped believing that nonsense that the "curse" was broken. Mindset is a lot.
there's a documentary on youtube called grinders with a funny quote, guy says, " I'll take AK suited over a hot blonde any day , call me gay "

this is the mindset you want lol
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Old 03-20-2019, 02:03 PM   #35
hyperknit
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Re: I simply do not know how to play AK.

When u have AK and u worry that itís obvious that u have AK, the best thing to do is try and act like u have AK
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Old 03-20-2019, 10:48 PM   #36
NOVAgrind
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Re: I simply do not know how to play AK.

My basic AK strategy: try to get 2 streets of value with TPTK, cbet on favorable boards vs 1-2 opponents (226, QT2, mono board when we have a FD, etc).

If you miss multiway just give up.

Against all but the craziest 1/2 or 1/3 tables, you shouldn't have a limp reraise range, it doesn't make any sense. Just open the same ~4x +1 bb per limp with AK, JTs, AA, TT, whatever. Maybe add a little bit more anytime you're in the SB or BB.

Don't be afraid to take the initiative and 4-bet blast it vs most players, but don't be afraid to fold when you miss or even sometimes when you make a pair against significant action in a multiway pot.

It probably isn't just your AK that needs work, you just remember it more because the pots are likely more bloated when you're holding it.

Someone once said something to this effect, I can't remember who... "Most of the money you make with AK in cash games is by calling down in position"
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Old 03-21-2019, 07:32 AM   #37
Shai Hulud
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Re: I simply do not know how to play AK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
OP doesn't sound like he's doing too good taking the approach he's taking now, and yet everyone else's answer to that is "keep doing what you're doing"? I'm giving him another option.



Gbuthe,andyou,candowhateveryoulike,Idon'treallycar eG
I don't think anyones saying "keep doing what you're doing."
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Old 03-21-2019, 12:08 PM   #38
gobbledygeek
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Re: I simply do not know how to play AK.

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Originally Posted by NOVAgrind View Post
My basic AK strategy: try to get 2 streets of value with TPTK
But go back to OP's original post. Note that he doesn't state effective stack size, but let's assume $300 (which is 100bb in his 1/3 NL game). He raises to $15, it gets 4 or 5 callers. So that creates a ~$80 pot with just $285 left. That's just a lol 3.5 SPR. So what's with this "2 streets of value" stuff? Just one bet with one caller will leave us around a PSB left; 2 callers leaves us with << PSB left. Are we feeling committed yet? That's the issue.

If OP was playing very deep, or raises were much smaller, or flops went much less multiway, then no commitment issues arise on the flop and you then have lots of room to play postflop poker over multiple streets. But in these types of games you don't; preflop has setup a decision for stacks on the flop, which is quite gross if you've flopped TP. IMO although others feel this is a fistpumping situation, so if you feel that way then no reason to deviate.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 03-21-2019, 12:16 PM   #39
snowman
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Re: I simply do not know how to play AK.

there was an old saying on the tourney circuit 20+ yrs ago
AK is a great hand to shove AI with but not so great to call an AI with

cash game translation
fold equity = $$$$$

when the OMC with cobb webs on his chips raises instead of thinking 3-bet with AK think insta muck

when the LAG or Maniac raises start thinking how big a 3-bet will they call

player reads decide further streets
like everyone said
EVERYONE PUTS YOU ON AK
so if they are playing back on you then DUHH they most likely are ahead of AK
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Old 03-21-2019, 02:04 PM   #40
NOVAgrind
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Re: I simply do not know how to play AK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
But go back to OP's original post. Note that he doesn't state effective stack size, but let's assume $300 (which is 100bb in his 1/3 NL game). He raises to $15, it gets 4 or 5 callers. So that creates a ~$80 pot with just $285 left. That's just a lol 3.5 SPR. So what's with this "2 streets of value" stuff? Just one bet with one caller will leave us around a PSB left; 2 callers leaves us with << PSB left. Are we feeling committed yet? That's the issue.

If OP was playing very deep, or raises were much smaller, or flops went much less multiway, then no commitment issues arise on the flop and you then have lots of room to play postflop poker over multiple streets. But in these types of games you don't; preflop has setup a decision for stacks on the flop, which is quite gross if you've flopped TP. IMO although others feel this is a fistpumping situation, so if you feel that way then no reason to deviate.

GcluelessNLnoobG
*basic* strategy. If you are always playing 1/2 or 1/3 for stacks on the flop with TPTK when you have invested 15 dollars with 285 behind, I don't know what to tell you. In your specific example, I think getting a little bit less than half of your stack in by the river would be about the average result, sometimes you are going to have to put in more to showdown, and sometimes you might be put in a spot where you have to fold, IDK, that's just poker.
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Old 03-22-2019, 11:10 AM   #41
UrbanLemming
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Re: I simply do not know how to play AK.

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Originally Posted by RottPhiler View Post
Lol at opening 12x and 20x bb, double lol at limp re-raising AK, and triple lol at winning the blinds with AK being a good outcome. Channeling our inner OMC today, are we?

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