Blind $1/$2

Hero ($540 = 270BB)
Hero has been playing for 5 hours in this table
Starting with $200 and making to $540 without big loss
My image to other players is very solid and they respect me a lot
Hero usually plays without talking to other players only listening to music

Villian ($650 = 325BB)
Hero played with villian for 2 times
Hero thinks that villian is typical TAG player, and good regular player also
No specific history between hero and villian so far

-Preflop-
Hero's position is UTG+2 with Js8s
UTG limps, and Hero also limps
Villian's poision is UTG+3 which is on my left
Villian raises to $8

MP called, CO called, BB called, UTG called, and Hero called
6 players
Pot size $49

-Flop-
9c Th 5s
BB checked
UTG checked
Hero checked
Villian bet $25 and all fold to Hero

At this point, I put villian's hand range 88+, ATs+
I really think of reraising because villian only bet half of the pot
If villian has overpairs like JJ+ or TPTK he may bet 2/3 or pot size to take
the pot because villian also doesnt like to give chance to straight draw at the 6 way pot

Hero wants to reraise because hero narrows villians hand ranges to straight draw like
JQ, JK otherwise set like 99, TT because of size of bet
Hero thinks for a while and just call

Pot size $99
Now heads up

-Turn-
Qh comes
9c Th 5s Qh
Hero gets second nuts straight
Hero check
Villan thinks for a while and bets $100
Hero reraises to $350
Villian thinks almost 3 mins and just called
At this point I put villians hand range to AhKh, AhJh, 99, TT, QQ, JK

Pot size $799

-River-
7c comes
Whole board 9c Th 5s Qh 7c

The river card is one of the safest card for Hero
Hero got the second nuts
Hero goes all in with the rest $182
Villian called immediately and shows KcJc

How can i play better in this hand ??
Is this unavoidable hand ??

fold pre. you are out of position with a weak hand.

Bet the flop and/or turn. If he raises you have a better idea.

Also I don't recommend c/r without the pure nuts or nut draw.

Agreed. As you won't flop much, and when you do, from this position, your hand is too vulnerable.

As played you're just beat by better hand not much you can do.

Fold pre.

Fold preflop, this is a ****ty hand. C/R flop. Villains half pot bet screams exactly what he has, a whiff that he's just hoping to take it down with. You can easily rep a set here. If he 3bets well then you fold.

I will limp behind other limpers on the button with J8s. But from here it's fold preflop 100% of the time.

If you ARE going to play J8, then I like the idea of raising your draws like you considered doing - this wins you your share of pots where both of you have nothing.

Once you turn the second nuts, then the correct play is to give all your money to the first nuts. Sometimes the correct play is to go broke.

J8 from UTG+2 ??? C'mon.

FOLD >>>>>>>>>>> Raise >> Limp

Obv fold pre. As played you can't fold, ever

I don't mind seeing a flop in a limpy pot with J8s from MP. I don't think its great but I don't think its especially terrible given we are 200bb+ deep.

What I don't like is your turn c/r. You blow out the majority of V's range with that c/r and lose so much value vs 2 pair combos, pair + FD and pair +SD combos which should comprise a lot of his range. I think the c/r should have been for $250 as I feel those hands can call that raise but when you make it $350, you only get called by 99, KJ and AhJh so you lose so much value pushing out all those other hands. I don't think QQ/TT is in V's range since those pairs tend to raise a lot more preflop since they are vulnerable to overs. So I heavily discount QQ/TT being in V's range and I think your c/r folds out AhKh as well.

Backing up a bit. Why did you go for a c/r here instead of just leading out? Are you the type of player that c/r's all of your monsters like in this case?

Overall, I consider this spot a bit of a mini cooler Once you hit gin on the turn heads up vs the preflop raiser, it is hard to not go broke here barring some super sick soul read and the only way you could get that is if you would have led out on the turn. But once you c/r blast the pot with your bazooka, no way you aren't losing that last $182.

In my mind, that is the decision you should think about in the context of your overall game.

If V was a spewtarded aggro donk then I could get behind a c/r blast like that. However, if V is competent, I would never c/r blast like that because it blows out like 80% of V's range in this spot and I lose value longterm.

Food for thought.

First part is wrong. Playing this hand oop while deep against a strong opponent is bad fundamental poker this scenario has incredible RIO potential.

Second part is pretty spot on, I donk the turn all day for 65-80. The turn gets checked through too much to try and check raise.

I don't hate OP's limp/call since we are deep. There are plenty of times we flop/turn two pairs or flop decent equity with outs that I just don't mind it. I mean, its not like we are going to stack off on a J 4 2r board.

It just sucks OP got mini-coolered here. But limp/calling for 4bb when 230bb+ deep and getting 6:1 in direct odds isn't terrible by any stretch and as long as you can play competently post flop, calling is +EV given the odds we are getting, both direct and implied.

It just sucks we ran into a nuts vs 2nd nuts situation.

Or put another way, would limp/calling 77 or 88 be RIO simply because there exists the possibility we can run into set over set and get coolered???

Overall, I don't think the preflop call is an automatic -EV call. If Hero is competent, then I consider it a +EV call or at worst 0EV.

fold pre dude

one of the reasons for not playing hands like this from EP is because you can get over flushed/lose to higher straight/etc

sorry you got coolered but sometimes learning your lesson can be expensive

I don't mind your limp PF but I think this is a c/c situation against this type of opponent especially when OOP. Even after you make your straight you know you can still be beat and this type of opponent wont continue with this kind of board unless he has hit it as well.

When you c/r the Turn you have basically announced your hand, other than maybe a combo flush/strt draw holding. And when you get the call he has you in a bad position where the rest of your stack should go in whether leading or c/c.

As far as leading or c/r the Flop, that may be a better move against a strong opponent when OOP so you can get some information before your full stack is in danger. Once you get a call or get raised here then you need to go into c/c mode if you make your hand. That would be the best way to get value against V full range of holdings.

Granted this was a bit of a cooler ... just trust your instincts next time, eh? GL

Playing out of position with a badly dominated hand against a competent opponent is bad fundamental poker and gets you into really bad spots post flop because you're constantly guessing. You'd be better off folding.

Comparing this situation to middle pocket pairs is disingenuous, but yeah, if hero is limp calling 77 out of position against a competent opponent I'd tell him it's bad fundamentals, too.

If we were in position, or we had more than a garbage suited two gapper I'd be fine with the call, but we're begging for trouble in this situation.

It depends on the player and the table. At a limp happy table without much preflop aggression, it can be a +EV limp if you are a good postflop player. The general wisdom for the average player is to fold for a lot of the reasons stated, but I have no doubt for a player as good as Dgi, that limping in that spot can definitely be +EV. whether it is profitable for the OP is unknown.

Once it is raised to 4bb and called in multiple spots, it's a trivial call.

Grumching a bit: kinda thinking this is a fold pre. IF villains to right were described as real bad I can see limping or possibly raising but they're described as neutral or decent so prolly not. Flop I like to raise if he has a fold button.

Don't put results in your OP.