I am well aware of the danger of playing OOP. Even if I plan to fold every time I am holding worst than top pair, I am still calling pre.

If there was just 1 caller, say UTG, and it folded to me, I can find a lot more folds. Even for 1 dollar, it's a sucker bet that has all the danger you just mentioned for a lot less reward.

But this. At 21:1 you can just play fit-or-fold pretty happily. Part of the reason why we as thinking players should be hesitant to limp. And then make a thread here asking why we got binged by some random 64o.


I mean, I am pretty happy on this board. And there are boards with semi draws I am pretty ok with as well. You don't have to flop the nuts to be strong here. Point is that there are far more boards that we are happy to continue with here. Anything else we are fine to just fold or check to see if we get a freebie.

But this doesn't make sense. If there are 3 people, you need to win 11% of the time and all things being equal you will win 33% of the time. There's far more leeway to realize your equity with fewer players than with 7 players in which the gap between the two variables is 10%.

The direct price doesn't matter. The gap between the required equity and the equity you will does.

Im probably not folding 67o in this exact spot either unless bb is aggro. It's 20:1 without rake but it's really 15:1 (or whatever the rake is) and we have a player left to act. Granted it's 2/3 and hes probably checking everything but top 5% but it's closer than it seems

It absolutely does. You are completely throwing out RIO and IO here, which as much annoyance as I give GG for it, is very relevant here with 76o in a smaller pot. Also as you pointed out, all things are not equal. Even against a limp range, we are not going to be winning 33% of the time with 76o. I don't even think there is a 10% of us having the best hand preflop. The worst case scenario when we do bingo is everyone folds out, we are winning 7 BB vs 3. Except with 7 players, it's far more likely someone caught something that can continue with.

You might argue that that's me quibbling over small numbers, but considering we are arguing about whether it's correct to limp 1/3 of a BB, I think that's fair to put on the table that less players = less potential winnings when we do make a strong hand here.

What tables are you playing at that they take 6$ out preflop in a pot of $21?

I am not saying we are going to win 33% of the time. I am saying that when we are 3 handed and our all things being equal odds are 33% and we need to win 11%, it's easier to realize the required equity to break even than when our all things being equal odds are 14% and the equity we need to break even is 5%. In both cases, we are going to win less than 33% and 14%, but in the first case we have the luxury of not winning 22% of the time and in the second 9% of the time in order to break even. That's why the former seems easier than the latter.

Moreover, RIO and us being dominated is far likelier when there are 7 players in the pot rather than 3.

You are doing the odds wrong. It's 20:1 and they take 5 out as soon as there is a flop in California at least

IL they take out a dollar out every 10$ the pot grows. It's usually 10% capped at 5-8$ depending on the casino. That's insane to me that they take 5$ out of a 20$ pot. If someone bets and everyone just folds...wow

Also, yes. 20:1.

2|3? I'm not folding anything with the tiniest bit of playability. There is a very significant difference between having to call half a blind vs. a third of a blind.

I agree with you that facing more limpers makes this hand worse. However the pot odds are enough to overcome the major weaknesses of this hand. I think people underestimate how big of a difference there is for the small blind between different blind structures. We're getting 20:1 here when we'd only be getting 13:1 in a .5BB small blind structure.

Oh ok. Didn't know places did it in percentages. The times I'm seldom playing 1/3 Ive started chopping because if sb limps and I have trash then there is 1 dollar to play for lol

Even bad players will notice the SB folding for a buck, especially in a multi-way pot.

Sometimes you need to splash around to maintain at least a friendly image. This is about as cheap and decent spot as I can imagine.

Take one for the team!

This is a crucial point.

Most of this discussion is missing the forest for the trees. Who cares if we lose -50 cents in EV when folding here might have bad long term effects on our image. Just check/fold on all flops that don't give us 2 pair or a straight or a decent draw. We won't lose more than 50 cents on this call. Live a little!

always complete the sb in limped family pot with any two cards unless bb is known to pop it

it's not playability or anything like that, you're paying $3 or less for great PR, err... more so avoiding setting off alarm bells how nitty you truly are

recs see that and freak out and sometimes will remember

if you are going to fold, make a speech like "i know this guy is going to raise" or "i'd love to play but gotta make a call" etc etc and then just walk away and hold up phone to face like you're a big shot while keeping table in peripheral vision for your button

It's brutal in California Card Clubs

Early in my playing cash, in a 1-1-2 game, I completed on the Button (yeah, I know), and the blinds went nuts, and I wasn't sure why. The SB folded, the BB checked. $5 in the pot, all $5 removed immediately for a pot of zero as the flop is dealt.

Limping while generally bad everywhere, is completely horrendous in these games.

Image manipulation is feel poker nonsense and a waste of mental energy. Be aware of your image but don't make -EV plays to change it.

If you're really worried about looking like a nit just show some bluffs. That's free.

I'm not a good enough player to weigh in on the post-flop play, but I will say I am definitely strongly considering just folding pre. Yes it is only a dollar, but there are just so few hands that our hand is actually better than. As OP found out here, there are a ton of flops that look great for us but are actually extremely problematic with huge negative implied odds. I'm really only happy if the flop comes down something like A67r or 854r. Anything else and we could end up dominated even when we hit.

I lose so much money in those spots, that it is easier for me to just avoid getting into those spots in the first place, rather than try to hunt thin value when I am completely lost in a hand.

This is horrible advice. When I first started taking poker seriously, I was given a set of rules by a crusher I was at university with. They were: no drinking/drugs before or during, dont open limp, dont complete in sb and dont tip per pot won but tip each dealer per down.

My win rate tripled.

Not sure if you are serious but what you're suggesting is a common leak most recs need to plug, not the other way around.

Also +1 to what browni3141 said.

+1. Like if a hand is pure trash here, fold it. Our willingness to gamble will show itself when we’re making +EV plays. I’ve told guys like GG that intentionally making a -EV play preflop in the hope that it’ll make an opponent commit a far worse one is not good poker, and that applies in the general sense, too.


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I disagree, this is probably why I never had problems getting invited to high stakes whale games while 2p2 is littered with threads about how tough it is to get into those games

Completing a family limped sb in a 2/3 game costs $1 dollar, that's nothing, a rounding difference. It also rarely occurs and there'll be just enough times when you got Yahtzee that it'll somewhat pay for itself.

And if it happens a lot that game is so soft you should be beating it handedly.

Same with straddle, you gotta do it sometimes. I'm always sure to to do first chance I get when I'm at a new table.

I've paid far worse to get into good games before, even slept with a fatty. Spending a dollar on a sb scratcher once or twice every session is a smaller price to pay, no pun intended.

Fatty strat?

ETA so I don't gets the banned: Is our SB continuing range much (if any) different that our Button continuing range in this case? If not, is that a problem? Or is it such a small problem that we don't care? As I say, even nitty me is pretty happy completing here... although I do wonder if it is a small leak.

Gnowwe'retalkin'boutfolds,amirite?G

If you are spending 1 dollar for access to a home game, that is one thing. If you are spending HUNDRED of dollars because you can't get away from the bottom end of a straight, or bottom two pair, etc, the equation changes. People need to be honest with themselves about which one they are.

I know I'm going to lose far more value from playing this hand than I will ever gain from image.

In my home games, I've noted in myself the need to "make a speech" when folding my SB to no raise. "Not worth a dollar." or "Not even for a dollar." or the like. Keeps the other fish happy, I hope (we're all fish)

At the casino, I have no such requirement, and will happily ****-can that 72o (and probably 76o, case dependent)