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Old 05-25-2016, 01:48 PM   #26
Richard Parker
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Re: I don't have a turn check/calling range after I cbet flop

Everything is relative.

High frequency pre raising range = wide range.

High frequency cbet = still wide range.

Going to turn with a wide range = probably bad news.

Going to turn with a wide range and OOP = bad news.
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Old 05-25-2016, 01:50 PM   #27
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Re: I don't have a turn check/calling range after I cbet flop

FWIW, OP is probably already attempting to balance turn check range with strong hands, but the problem is that strong hands make up for such small % of his range every step of the way, that % is nullified no matter what you do.
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Old 05-25-2016, 02:05 PM   #28
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Re: I don't have a turn check/calling range after I cbet flop

In general x/r turn is not defense against floats. At least not better than x/c. Besides it loses value when we have 3streets value hand.
This move should be used rarely, on specific boards better for villain, when we have one of our seldom nuts or best bluff.
Avoid looking for c/r turn only because you had to give up some flop bluffs, rather think about your flop cbet range.
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Old 05-25-2016, 02:14 PM   #29
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Re: I don't have a turn check/calling range after I cbet flop

Huh? If turn CR is a such strong move, why would it be bad as bluff?
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Old 05-25-2016, 02:25 PM   #30
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Re: I don't have a turn check/calling range after I cbet flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6betfold View Post
Ok I'll post some failed cbets from my phone notes...

- fish limp me 15 ajo in lp SB call fish call flop 447cc 25 into 45 fish calls
- 12 ATcc utg 2 fish in lp call flop Q53xxc 20 into 40 next guy makes it 40
- 3 weak limps me 25 otb with KsJh v1 in SB and v2 fish next to me calls ATss2c 45 into 85 v1 110
- AQdd 15 utg btn oldie calls SB calls flop KK3dd 20 into 48 turn 3s river 2c lost to 44
H1: I might take my free card 3way with no high cards to rep to get pairs to fold.

H2: You game plays different than mine if a $12 in EP narrows the field. I also like open limping this hand in EP a lot more than raising it, but that's me (a raise often narrows the field to hands that dominate us). I'm ok with cbetting this Q high flop 3ways (and folding when raised).

H3: I'd probably overlimp, especially if I'm going to have a hard time stealing the dead money or getting this HU (where I'll be a lot more successful in my cbet attempts). A high flops are good to cbet if it's unlikely someone has an A, but after 3 limpers and getting called in 2 spots, there's a pretty good chance someone has one, imo. I might just take my free card, but I don't hate a cbet.

H4: Again, in EP I'm much more likely to open limp this hand than raise it (unless everyone is shortish where I can setup easy commitment with TP); it's closer than the ATs case, but it's still not a slam dunk raise, imo. I'd play postflop the same.

Overall, I'm just a lot more passive preflop than you. Not saying that's good or bad, but it doesn't get me into nearly as many OOP cbetty situations as you get into.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 05-25-2016, 02:34 PM   #31
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Re: I don't have a turn check/calling range after I cbet flop

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FWIW, OP is probably already attempting to balance turn check range with strong hands, but the problem is that strong hands make up for such small % of his range every step of the way, that % is nullified no matter what you do.
Play exploitative vs. easy exploitable LLSNL villains...

If villain is going to be bluff heavy/agro with his entire range OTT we have a +EV spot to x-call and x-raise.
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Old 05-25-2016, 02:35 PM   #32
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Re: I don't have a turn check/calling range after I cbet flop

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Play exploitative vs. easy exploitable LLSNL villains...

If villain is going to be bluff heavy/agro with his entire range OTT we have a +EV spot to x-call and x-raise.


That's some self leveling assumptions.
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Old 05-25-2016, 03:22 PM   #33
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Re: I don't have a turn check/calling range after I cbet flop

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That's some self leveling assumptions.
Pretty much im talking in general obvious im not in OP's game so i don't have any reads on villain.

Poker is an imperfect game of information just so u know.
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Old 05-25-2016, 03:22 PM   #34
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Re: I don't have a turn check/calling range after I cbet flop

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Huh? If turn CR is a such strong move, why would it be bad as bluff?
Ehh did not say it cannot be bluff. Actually it should be polarized. Only said that we must use it carefuly and having c/r turn range does not defend against floats. And that using it often extremely complicates going for 3 streets with strong hand as well as bluff cbet turn.
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Old 05-25-2016, 10:02 PM   #35
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Re: I don't have a turn check/calling range after I cbet flop

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Pretty much im talking in general obvious im not in OP's game so i don't have any reads on villain.

Poker is an imperfect game of information just so u know.
You missed the point.

Point is that you would have to be very very spot on in your reads for your assumptions to be +EV.
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Old 05-25-2016, 10:05 PM   #36
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Re: I don't have a turn check/calling range after I cbet flop

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Ehh did not say it cannot be bluff. Actually it should be polarized.
Why should it be polarized? It shouldn't really matter.

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Originally Posted by Shamway99 View Post
Only said that we must use it carefuly and having c/r turn range does not defend against floats.
How does it not?

If the guy is calling you light on flop and bets light on turn, it would be very hard to call a CR. It would be even harder if you are not doing it with a polarized range.

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And that using it often extremely complicates going for 3 streets with strong hand as well as bluff cbet turn.
Depends on the frequency of V floating obviously. If V is floating often, then using it every time makes sense.

Perhaps you don't really understand what floating means.
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Old 05-26-2016, 06:04 AM   #37
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Re: I don't have a turn check/calling range after I cbet flop

OK lets talk a bit about floating and defense.
For this purpose float would be line: V flatts flop and bets turn after our missed cbet.
To defend against float properly, we must not overfold turn. Note that now we care only about our x/f part of range, which cannot be too wide. We do not care about cbet range, x/c and x/r.
Thus moving some hands from cbet or x/c to x/r does not improve defense. When we want to use x/r to improve defense (= decrease x/f range) we must move some hands from folding to x/r range as bluff and balance with strong hands. Thats why our c/r range cannot be linear.

All this applies only for using c/r move to improve antifloat defense, if you want to exploit villains too wide floating range we should think other way. For that purpose we can use undercbet turn and playing our value range often by x/c or c/r. Maybe this confused you.

All in all balancing our turn x/f range must begin on flop cbet range whereas exploiting villains overfloat can be done ott.
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Old 05-26-2016, 06:48 AM   #38
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Re: I don't have a turn check/calling range after I cbet flop

Raise less pre. Cbet less on the flop when you do raise. Check the turn with some hands that you value bet on the flop with, even when you are concerned about giving free cards to possible draws.
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Old 05-26-2016, 11:04 AM   #39
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Re: I don't have a turn check/calling range after I cbet flop

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Originally Posted by Shamway99 View Post
To defend against float properly, we must not overfold turn. Note that now we care only about our x/f part of range, which cannot be too wide. We do not care about cbet range, x/c and x/r.
Thus moving some hands from cbet or x/c to x/r does not improve defense. When we want to use x/r to improve defense (= decrease x/f range) we must move some hands from folding to x/r range as bluff and balance with strong hands. Thats why our c/r range cannot be linear.
This is wrong. If we take some hands from our turn betting range and move them to check/call or check/raise, we are decreasing the percentage of the time that we will fold after checking. We would decrease the percentage even more if we instead used hands we were check/folding, but both adjustments would get us towards the same end goal, which is to have enough stuff we're checking on the turn that we don't fold.
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Old 05-26-2016, 11:51 AM   #40
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Re: I don't have a turn check/calling range after I cbet flop

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Thus moving some hands from cbet or x/c to x/r does not improve defense.
Not sure if you understand that cbet is referring to flop and flop only, but if you do and that this is in reference to my comment of cbet frequency, then it should be obvious that if we reduce cbet frequency, V would be unable to float as much; it would become a different scenario.

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Originally Posted by Shamway99 View Post
Thus moving some hands from cbet or x/c to x/r does not improve defense.

When we want to use x/r to improve defense (= decrease x/f range) we must move some hands from folding to x/r range as bluff and balance with strong hands. Thats why our c/r range cannot be linear.
Doesn't make whole lot of sense. Naturally to defend against float, we should decrease our folding frequency. If we are already x/c and x/r at a y%, a better response would be to increase that y%. Of course we can't move any hands out of either of those two ranges, because it would decrease the %, so the only way is to add.

All that is pretty obvious to me and I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise.

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For that purpose we can use undercbet turn and playing our value range often by x/c or c/r. Maybe this confused you.
So to defend against float, double barrel more often? That's fine, too.

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All in all balancing our turn x/f range must begin on flop cbet range whereas exploiting villains overfloat can be done ott.
FWIW, no one is arguing balancing and it's silly to suggest that we should.

I am merely suggesting that OP should probably shed some of his weaker hands if he thinks people are calling him light.
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Old 05-26-2016, 12:12 PM   #41
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Re: I don't have a turn check/calling range after I cbet flop

your c-bet% should be around 60%, meaning you should check your strong hands some of the time, also, I would have double barreled the 447 flop, probably bomb the river too
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Old 05-26-2016, 12:20 PM   #42
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Re: I don't have a turn check/calling range after I cbet flop

I am afraid to ask why you're suggesting 60% as cbet frequency...

Considering how most reasonable pre raising range hits only 25% of the board, you need to add weak hands, not remove strong hands.
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Old 05-26-2016, 12:21 PM   #43
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Re: I don't have a turn check/calling range after I cbet flop

Any discussion here requires assumptions about ops opening range. Probably would be helpful if OP just listed his utg and c/o opening ranges.
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Old 05-26-2016, 04:45 PM   #44
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Re: I don't have a turn check/calling range after I cbet flop

Are you playing villians ranges on each street? A lot of value check/check-raise turn spots should become apparent.

Can't comment on 100BB games, but with decent stacks and opposition that peels light and folds turn I don't c bet unless planning on barrelling a lot of turns, perhaps a majority if OOP (A72 type boards being the exception).Turn barrel is the new c bet.
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Old 05-26-2016, 05:07 PM   #45
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Re: I don't have a turn check/calling range after I cbet flop

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I am afraid to ask why you're suggesting 60% as cbet frequency...

Considering how most reasonable pre raising range hits only 25% of the board, you need to add weak hands, not remove strong hands.
No math to back this up but if you study the hand histories of good players this is right around what their c-bet frequency is, obviously it depends on how tight or loose you are pre flop, there is a balance

just a guess based on experience, trial and error, and studying hand histories, but I think the GTO line has to be around 58-60% for a player with a standard 16/12% vpip

c-betting is an art tho, picking the right ones to fire is a skill that good players have, definitely important to improve this skill if you don't feel comfortable

i don't like c-betting all four of those hands, I think checking the AQdd flop is best because you can slop play Kx in that spot and a lot of villains range will bet it for you, not to mention you are way way ahead most of the time and might be losing value by inducing folds

Last edited by IMA; 05-26-2016 at 05:12 PM.
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Old 05-26-2016, 05:32 PM   #46
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Re: I don't have a turn check/calling range after I cbet flop

12 ATcc utg 2 fish in lp call flop Q53xxc 20 into 40 next guy makes it 40

this hand is a standard no c-bet for a very explicit reason btw,
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Old 05-26-2016, 05:35 PM   #47
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I don't have a turn check/calling range after I cbet flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by kookiemonster View Post
Are you playing villians ranges on each street? A lot of value check/check-raise turn spots should become apparent.

Can't comment on 100BB games, but with decent stacks and opposition that peels light and folds turn I don't c bet unless planning on barrelling a lot of turns, perhaps a majority if OOP (A72 type boards being the exception).Turn barrel is the new c bet.

This a lot.

It's fairly intuitive but disregarding flop texture, a balanced betting strat allows more bluffs if you are 3 barelling vs 2 barreling and 2 barreling vs one and doneing. So if one and doneing it your value to bluff ratio needs to be significantly higher.

When I flop decent equity like gutter + bdfd I'm picking a line that gets me to the turn or river most of the time. On some flops that's X/back and potentially delayed cbetting or X/calling ott. On others its dbl barrel.

Which way I go is based on how the flop fits my villains range, my image and the type of villain.

OOP is obviously more difficult and the more dynamic the flop the tougher it will be to play our air.

Definitely not expecting villains to fold TP or or pps on flops that miss our perceived range for a single bet.

Further if you become a habitual one and doner villains will correctly be peeling weak/medium vs 1/2 Potish cbets since they can count on a free card.
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Old 05-26-2016, 05:56 PM   #48
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Re: I don't have a turn check/calling range after I cbet flop

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No math to back this up but if you study the hand histories of good players this is right around what their c-bet frequency is, obviously it depends on how tight or loose you are pre flop, there is a balance

just a guess based on experience, trial and error, and studying hand histories, but I think the GTO line has to be around 58-60% for a player with a standard 16/12% vpip
God...

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c-betting is an art tho, picking the right ones to fire is a skill that good players have, definitely important to improve this skill if you don't feel comfortable
Art to outsiders, math to real observers.

Damn thing is not an art.
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Old 05-26-2016, 06:24 PM   #49
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Re: I don't have a turn check/calling range after I cbet flop

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No math to back this up but if you study the hand histories of good players this is right around what their c-bet frequency is
Dont worry about no math. The gto is not known and we cannot have math proof. Anyway some analyses of big online databases, good players observations and last but not least Snowie show that 50-60% cbet oop with strong preflop range is correct.
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Old 05-26-2016, 08:12 PM   #50
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Re: I don't have a turn check/calling range after I cbet flop

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your c-bet% should be around 60%, meaning you should check your strong hands some of the time, also, I would have double barreled the 447 flop, probably bomb the river too
Pretty sure OR qualified his 80% guesstimate with '...on certain boards'. Presuming this meant avoiding missed flops with mid-sized connectors, too many callers etc.... he's probably not too far off the 60% anyway.

(It's actually one of those things that's probably not easy to estimate about your own game without notes)
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