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Hypothetical: LAG players drawing in position Hypothetical: LAG players drawing in position

04-14-2015 , 12:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker
So you guys believe seat to the left of LAG is best?

lol.......
04-14-2015 , 12:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pexw
Never know how to play this when a flush hits on the river against a LAG who is calling in position on the flop and turn with implied odds. Let's say we have history with this player and know that he frequently draws.

Let's say its a 1/3 game and both hero and villain have around $400

Hero (CO) bets $15 with KQ
V (BTN) calls
Folds around

Flop ($30):
KQ3
Hero bets $25
V calls

Turn ($80)
8
Hero bets $60
V calls

River ($200)
7
Hero???

Very hard to check here since V is likely to jam whether or not he has the flush.
How much to bet? Do you jam in front? Do you check the turn for pot control in case the flush hits? Bet half pot hoping V just calls/folds? Bet/fold to a raise? He might have also had AJ or TJ, possibly a worse two pair with K8 or Q8, even AK or KJ is possible here.
I guess the question should be are we
check/calling?
check/folding?
Bet/ folding?

And how much......

I would bet/fold $100. At this point Villain should have $300 left on river, so if we get raised, we can fold.
04-14-2015 , 01:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker
Thanks buddy - then I guess I am doing something right.
probably something. see: blind squirrels, nuts, broken clocks, etc.

to briefly address your original statement: choosing the seat which is the highest ev is a decision that should incorporate on a number of factors. often the most important is your position relative to the weaker players at the table, although this is not always the case as you have a positional relationship with each other player at the table. these relationships can affect the strategy which the players choose to play against you and vice versa, and then subsequently the ev of the seat in question. simply saying that a "LAG" (which is far too broad of a term to be useful in this context to begin with) is universally better on your left is an ignorant statement that displays a lack of understanding about the issue in discussion, and, at some level, poker more generally.
04-14-2015 , 02:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvds
probably something. see: blind squirrels, nuts, broken clocks, etc.
I don't troll - just that my approach to the game is well above you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jvds
to briefly address your original statement: choosing the seat which is the highest ev is a decision that should incorporate on a number of factors.
Obviously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jvds
often the most important is your position relative to the weaker players at the table, although this is not always the case as you have a positional relationship with each other player at the table.
Not necessarily, but again, it's another statement that depends.

In case of a maniac, position relative to him would be the most important, and he may not be the weakest player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jvds
these relationships can affect the strategy which the players choose to play against you and vice versa, and then subsequently the ev of the seat in question.
Not disagreeing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jvds
simply saying that a "LAG" (which is far too broad of a term to be useful in this context to begin with) is universally better on your left is an ignorant statement that displays a lack of understanding about the issue in discussion, and, at some level, poker more generally.
It's in response to an equally ignorant comment:

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek
Obviously the most important thing to improve upon in this hand is our seat position (nothing else is even remotely close, imo).
Why don't you preach to him instead?
04-14-2015 , 03:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvds
probably something. see: blind squirrels, nuts, broken clocks, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker
I don't troll - just that my approach to the game is well above you.
based on the things i have seen you post, it is literally impossible for both of these to be true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jvds View Post
to briefly address your original statement: choosing the seat which is the highest ev is a decision that should incorporate on a number of factors.
Quote:
Obviously.
this is not either necessarily or even likely to be consistent with the post that i took issue with

Quote:
Originally Posted by jvds View Post
often the most important is your position relative to the weaker players at the table, although this is not always the case as you have a positional relationship with each other player at the table.
Quote:
Not necessarily, but again, it's another statement that depends.

In case of a maniac, position relative to him would be the most important, and he may not be the weakest player.
reading comp, yo. if i meant necessarily, i would have said so. rather, i indicated that it was a statement that was sometimes, but not always, true.

in some cases relative position may be most important, but that is completely consistent with what i wrote - the positional relationship you have with the players behind the maniac in those cases is implicated too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jvds View Post
these relationships can affect the strategy which the players choose to play against you and vice versa, and then subsequently the ev of the seat in question.
Quote:
Not disagreeing.
ok, good.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jvds View Post
simply saying that a "LAG" (which is far too broad of a term to be useful in this context to begin with) is universally better on your left is an ignorant statement that displays a lack of understanding about the issue in discussion, and, at some level, poker more generally.
Quote:
It's in response to an equally ignorant comment:
Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
Obviously the most important thing to improve upon in this hand is our seat position (nothing else is even remotely close, imo).
Quote:
Why don't you preach to him instead?
you understand that you're saying that your comment was as ignorant as his, right? i guess you just got lucky
04-14-2015 , 03:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10
As an aside, this HH is an example of why I dislike hypothetical hands. The player you describe isn't a LAG by my definition. LAGs don't call, they bet or raise. "AG" stands for aggressive and chasing draws by calling isn't aggressive. So in reality, nobody knows anything about the villain other than his propensity to jam rivers when a danger card comes. At 1/2, the vast majority of villains don't bluff the river.
What if it is a LAG who respects hero's bets so will be less aggressive if hero shows strength but will pounce if hero shows weakness or there is an obvious scare card?

This sort of player might bet with most of his calling range if you check the turn, so may be susceptible to a check-raise.
04-14-2015 , 03:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvds
based on the things i have seen you post, it is literally impossible for both of these to be true.
Hey, you can't only judge based on what you know. Do feel free to participate in my posts though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jvds
this is not either necessarily or even likely to be consistent with the post that i took issue with
Then perhaps you should be more precise.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jvds
reading comp, yo. if i meant necessarily, i would have said so. rather, i indicated that it was a statement that was sometimes, but not always, true.
Writing comp, yo. So you wrote a statement that is essentially...pointless?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jvds
in some cases relative position may be most important, but that is completely consistent with what i wrote - the positional relationship you have with the players behind the maniac in those cases is implicated too.
I guess you do write pretty consistent...

Again, nothing to be taken from what you wrote that isn't obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jvds
you understand that you're saying that your comment was as ignorant as his, right? i guess you just got lucky
I am pretty precise in my responses in these forums.

I try to remain pretty consistent with posts that I quote.
04-14-2015 , 03:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker
Hey, you can't only judge based on what you know. Do feel free to participate in my posts though.
the order you wrote these words in implies that you should judge based on things that you don't know at the time of judgment. even with a little word scrambling it doesnt fix the issue that you are either trolling or just often far off base.


Quote:
Then perhaps you should be more precise.
no, i was precise. the statement you agreed was obvious was not necessarily consistent with your prior statement that i had expressed disagreement with. further, it is not likely that your prior statement was consistent even putting aside the fact that logic did necessitate its consistency. then the final implication here is that it makes little sense for you to agree something i said is obvious when it is probably inconsistent with what you said.


Quote:
Writing comp, yo. So you wrote a statement that is essentially...pointless?
no, i wrote a statement that did not necessarily imply a conclusion - these are quite common in the world and have plenty of value. statements of probability fall into this category and i think even you would not assert that they are worthless. as you so aptly put, sometimes, "it depends."



Quote:
I guess you do write pretty consistently...

Again, nothing to be taken from what you wrote that isn't obvious.
fyp, although you meant that the statements i write are pretty consistent.
see, you say this, but it was in response to your disagreement with an expression of nearly the same point.

Quote:
I am pretty precise in my responses in these forums.


I try to remain pretty consistent with posts that I quote.
hard to tell which of these statements i disagree with more. i guess you are very consistent at responding to things that i precisely did not say, so there's that.
04-14-2015 , 04:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvds
the order you wrote these words in implies that you should judge based on things that you don't know at the time of judgment. even with a little word scrambling it doesnt fix the issue that you are either trolling or just often far off base.
Seems like the only one trolling in this thread is you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jvds
no, i was precise. the statement you agreed was obvious was not necessarily consistent with your prior statement that i had expressed disagreement with.
Pretty sure there isn't one statement in your posts that offered anything that isn't "it depends," except you coat them in longwinded fillers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jvds
further, it is not likely that your prior statement was consistent even putting aside the fact that logic did necessitate its consistency. then the final implication here is that it makes little sense for you to agree something i said is obvious when it is probably inconsistent with what you said.
Case in point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jvds
no, i wrote a statement that did not necessarily imply a conclusion - these are quite common in the world and have plenty of value.
In other words, you meant to say "it depends"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jvds
statements of probability fall into this category and i think even you would not assert that they are worthless. as you so aptly put, sometimes, "it depends."
Yep.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jvds
fyp, although you meant that the statements i write are pretty consistent.
see, you say this, but it was in response to your disagreement with an expression of nearly the same point.
LOL, we gonna go there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jvds
hard to tell which of these statements i disagree with more. i guess you are very consistent at responding to things that i precisely did not say, so there's that.
And you like to write incomplete and run-on sentences...so that's that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jvds
the order you wrote these words in implies that you should judge based on things that you don't know at the time of judgment.
FWIW...don't try to correct others when these words came out of you...
04-14-2015 , 04:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker
Seems like the only one trolling in this thread is you.
words are important, especially when you are trying to be precise!


Quote:
Pretty sure there isn't one statement in your posts that offered anything that isn't "it depends," except you coat them in longwinded fillers.
i sometimes offer reasons why it depends and sometimes offer general or specific examples of factors that it depends on. i dont always though - it depends. i did originally offer a brief explanation of why it depends and some things it might depend on, although i'm not surprised you didn't notice.



Quote:
Case in point.
in the post you so cleverly quote i was walking you through something i said earlier after you badly misinterpreted it, when i wasn't quite as verbose. point taken though, i will try to use some bullet points.


Quote:
In other words, you meant to say "it depends"?
i actually did say that in the first post which you misinterpreted somehow to mean it doesnt depend.


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Yep.
+1


Quote:
LOL, we gonna go there?
•words r important


Quote:
And you like to write incomplete and run-on sentences...so that's that.
feel free to offer corrections, i would love to see them



Quote:
FWIW...don't try to correct others when these words came out of you...
Quote:
the order you wrote these words in implies that you should judge based on things that you don't know at the time of judgment.
im actually curious what, specifically, you think is wrong with this
04-14-2015 , 06:10 AM
You know what you guys should do?

Spoiler:
HU4ROLLZ
04-14-2015 , 07:12 AM
Thread has been thoroughly derailed. I'm going to lock up.
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