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Old 02-07-2019, 09:20 PM   #1
momo_uk
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How to tackle players minraising for information?

History hand with V from last month:

He minraised my cbet on 7 hi flop with 88, I called with a double gutter.... turn was Q and went xx, river A I bet ~PSB and he open folded and I showed my whiff too.


Todayís hand: He (800) limps UTG, 2 other limps, I (500) raise 15 (because super dead table and everyone will fold if I make it 20, plus hes the only big stack, and everyoneís nitty) in BB with KK, all 3 call.

Flop (60): 863r
I bet 25, he raises to 50, I know he has 8x often here but if I 3b he will fold, so I just call expecting him to always check behind turn.

Turn (160): 8x
I check, He bets 30, terrible card but canít fold anything for this price (?!)

River (220): 2x
I check, he bets 40, same problem again, this is never a bluff but given the price I call.

He has K8o.


How do I tackle this guy on future hands?
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Old 02-07-2019, 10:06 PM   #2
MogFish
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Re: How to tackle players minraising for information?

3 bet low dry flops with hands better than TPGK. Don't let him set his own price for his mediocre hands when you are at the top of your range.
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Old 02-07-2019, 10:16 PM   #3
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Re: How to tackle players minraising for information?

If you are at "super dead table" just leave the table. Secondly if you have strong read fold the river and don't even think about it. If your read is strong enough the sizing doesn't matter. You honestly could fold the turn if your read is that strong, you don't have the direct odds to call for a K on the river directly but you likely have enough implied odds when you get there.
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Old 02-07-2019, 11:45 PM   #4
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Re: How to tackle players minraising for information?

What stakes is this?
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Old 02-08-2019, 04:05 AM   #5
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Re: How to tackle players minraising for information?

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Originally Posted by momo_uk View Post
How do I tackle this guy on future hands?
fold when you know villain's hand and aren't getting pot odds

raise when you know villains are folding their entire range
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Old 02-08-2019, 05:33 AM   #6
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Re: How to tackle players minraising for information?

There are generally two ways to respond to over-aggression. One is to trap, like you do to an over-bluffing LAG. That's obviously not going to work here. The other is to respond to it with aggression of your own. Betting and raising in poker are most fundamentally assertions that you hold a range advantage over your opponent. Whether he means to say that or not, that's the claim he's making by raising. If he's wrong, say so by reraising.

The main point of reraising is to bluff him out when he can't call, that's the way you're going to make money. However, you should reraise with value hands as well, because like everything else in poker, you can't consider hands in isolation - you need to make some pretence at being balanced. Although he's going to fold his K8 in this spot, you're not really giving up anything, because he has no intention of paying you off with it anyway. That's the whole point of this minraise gambit he's running, it's because he doesn't want to pay off large bets. Even if you flat and check turn, he's probably not paying you off on the river, because when you call the flop raise and bet the river, he got the information he was looking for.
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Old 02-08-2019, 05:50 AM   #7
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Re: How to tackle players minraising for information?

If he does the tiny betting a lot then you can play more drawy hands with him in the pot knowing you are going to get correct prices to play. Also, if he is not putting in bluffs with his minibets you have to start folding until he does start bluffing then you can start calling again and look to exploit his frequencies.
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Old 02-08-2019, 06:37 AM   #8
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Re: How to tackle players minraising for information?

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Originally Posted by ChrisV View Post
There are generally two ways to respond to over-aggression. One is to trap, like you do to an over-bluffing LAG. That's obviously not going to work here. The other is to respond to it with aggression of your own. Betting and raising in poker are most fundamentally assertions that you hold a range advantage over your opponent. Whether he means to say that or not, that's the claim he's making by raising. If he's wrong, say so by reraising.

The main point of reraising is to bluff him out when he can't call, that's the way you're going to make money. However, you should reraise with value hands as well, because like everything else in poker, you can't consider hands in isolation - you need to make some pretence at being balanced. Although he's going to fold his K8 in this spot, you're not really giving up anything, because he has no intention of paying you off with it anyway. That's the whole point of this minraise gambit he's running, it's because he doesn't want to pay off large bets. Even if you flat and check turn, he's probably not paying you off on the river, because when you call the flop raise and bet the river, he got the information he was looking for.


So basically, I should 3b him with my entire range when he minraises me.
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Old 02-08-2019, 06:38 AM   #9
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Re: How to tackle players minraising for information?

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Originally Posted by zica View Post
If he does the tiny betting a lot then you can play more drawy hands with him in the pot knowing you are going to get correct prices to play. Also, if he is not putting in bluffs with his minibets you have to start folding until he does start bluffing then you can start calling again and look to exploit his frequencies.


Why should I fold when I know heís capped at TP with those minraises? Might be better to 3b bluff instead.
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Old 02-08-2019, 07:03 AM   #10
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Re: How to tackle players minraising for information?

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Why should I fold when I know heís capped at TP with those minraises? Might be better to 3b bluff instead.
Of course you should try that but then if you do it all the time he should adjust and start calling you, and so on. This is what poker is all about, adjusting and readjusting. But if you decide to bluff you don't know if he will fold tp. Doesn't he have a brain too, and wont he realize that his bet may look weak so he can call you sometimes? You are not the only one in the room with a brain.
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Old 02-08-2019, 08:12 AM   #11
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Re: How to tackle players minraising for information?

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So basically, I should 3b him with my entire range when he minraises me.
Yeah. As a default, until you see how he reacts. It's exploitatively targeting folds to do that, because his minraises seem to show some kind of hand, and a balanced raising range against that clearly has to be stronger than your cbetting range when you don't know what he has. But as long as he's folding, just threebet everything. Careful if he ever flats the threebet btw, after he catches on to what you're doing he will definitely try to trap like that.
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Old 02-08-2019, 08:34 AM   #12
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Re: How to tackle players minraising for information?

In these spots Iíve found that calling when I donít want them to fold, and raising when I do works out pretty well. Maybe even showing the bluff might make him think twice about doing this in the future. Just annoying when you have it because heís basically telling you that heís not gonna give you much more than the min raise. Only way to get any more out of him is to try and bet small otr.


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Old 02-08-2019, 08:56 AM   #13
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Re: How to tackle players minraising for information?

Grunch:
Quote:
and I showed my whiff too.
Don't do this. You had a license to steal, now maybe not so much.

I would not c-bet if I didn't want the pot to grow, and would 3-bet liberally when I did and he min-raised. I'd keep doing it with value and with air until he adjusts (if ever).
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Old 02-08-2019, 09:17 AM   #14
atenesq
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Re: How to tackle players minraising for information?

stick it in his eye
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Old 02-08-2019, 01:05 PM   #15
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Re: How to tackle players minraising for information?

Momo - this may be a small difference but i think your flop bet is a little on the small side. Might me inducing the min raise more than you think. I like $35-40 here.
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Old 02-08-2019, 03:43 PM   #16
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Re: How to tackle players minraising for information?

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Momo - this may be a small difference but i think your flop bet is a little on the small side. Might me inducing the min raise more than you think. I like $35-40 here.


10000%.

This is what I was just going to post (forgot to ask in OP). I shouldíve bet larger OTF.

But the board is sooo dry man, and if Iím inducing worse to raise, how bad can it really be?
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Old 02-08-2019, 03:58 PM   #17
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Re: How to tackle players minraising for information?

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10000%.

This is what I was just going to post (forgot to ask in OP). I shouldíve bet larger OTF.

But the board is sooo dry man, and if Iím inducing worse to raise, how bad can it really be?
Momo- inducing canít be bad. However most Vís are just inelastically calling or folding and in that sense value bet the flop rather than betting to induce against the vast majority of Vís.

If I play a 4 hr session, I make 0-2 bets to induce vs. 50-60 bets to max value.
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Old 02-08-2019, 05:11 PM   #18
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Re: How to tackle players minraising for information?

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Originally Posted by twitcherroo View Post
Momo- inducing canít be bad. However most Vís are just inelastically calling or folding and in that sense value bet the flop rather than betting to induce against the vast majority of Vís.



If I play a 4 hr session, I make 0-2 bets to induce vs. 50-60 bets to max value.


Iím not really betting to induce. Itís just a standard size cbet on this texture. If I bet $40/50, wonít his continuing range be narrower and allow him to fold most hands correctly?
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Old 02-09-2019, 03:41 AM   #19
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Re: How to tackle players minraising for information?

I just got owned again doing this...

1/2, 4 limps, I raise to 20 in SB with JJ, nitrock (150) calls in BB , 1 other (70) call

I put nitrock on pairs, AK, AQ

Flop (65): T87r
I cbet 35 with an intention to fold to a raise from him, he raises to 75 (he makes this move with nuts often), fold, I fold

I ask him show if I fold? He says yes, I fold.

He shows QThh.
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Old 02-09-2019, 03:58 AM   #20
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Re: How to tackle players minraising for information?

Quote:
Originally Posted by momo_uk View Post
I just got owned again doing this...

1/2, 4 limps, I raise to 20 in SB with JJ, nitrock (150) calls in BB , 1 other (70) call

I put nitrock on pairs, AK, AQ

Flop (65): T87r
I cbet 35 with an intention to fold to a raise from him, he raises to 75 (he makes this move with nuts often), fold, I fold

I ask him show if I fold? He says yes, I fold.

He shows QThh.
I play in a soft room(no nitrocks-except me) but when I played in a tougher room a nitrock would never in a million years call pre in this spot. I keep seeing threads where, to my mind, the action dramatically contradicts the description - I guess it's me. I must be way out of touch.

Edit:
But is your fold correct given whatever new range you put him on due to this hand?
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Old 02-09-2019, 04:01 AM   #21
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Re: How to tackle players minraising for information?

You can't really fold there, you essentially have to be certain that he is nutted. Like it's a fold if he only ever has { 77 88 TT } but all you have to do is throw ATs in there and it's easily a GII. Or 99, even easier GII. The fact that he actually had QT makes it seem like you couldn't have been that certain.
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Old 02-09-2019, 05:34 AM   #22
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Re: How to tackle players minraising for information?

If they fold to being 3b, it means they are unlikely to put more $$$ in unimproved anyway, so just make them fold and move onto the next hand. They may even stop minraising for info, and you'll have better control of the table.

Smaller sizing is best. They won't need much persuasion.
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Old 02-09-2019, 05:58 AM   #23
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Re: How to tackle players minraising for information?

Quote:
Originally Posted by momo_uk View Post
I just got owned again doing this...

1/2, 4 limps, I raise to 20 in SB with JJ, nitrock (150) calls in BB , 1 other (70) call

I put nitrock on pairs, AK, AQ

Flop (65): T87r
I cbet 35 with an intention to fold to a raise from him, he raises to 75 (he makes this move with nuts often), fold, I fold

I ask him show if I fold? He says yes, I fold.

He shows QThh.
I think you mislabeled this guy and gave him an inaccurate player profile; Is this 2/5 or 1/3 ? against a nit, folding is an option but remember you have a gutter so you have 6 outs when your behind
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Old 02-09-2019, 06:02 AM   #24
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Re: How to tackle players minraising for information?

if they say "I'll show if you fold" , this generally means that they don't want a call, if he has a monster he knows that this will induce you to fold knowing you'll get to see

some people are genuine about it and don't care too much about deterring a caller with their nutted hands but most are not imo
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Old 02-09-2019, 08:17 AM   #25
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Re: How to tackle players minraising for information?

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Originally Posted by tmo1120 View Post
if they say "I'll show if you fold" , this generally means that they don't want a call, if he has a monster he knows that this will induce you to fold knowing you'll get to see

some people are genuine about it and don't care too much about deterring a caller with their nutted hands but most are not imo

Correct, but I didnít think about it in the heat of the moment. Plus I would feel like a scumbag to gii after asking that question.
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