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Old 02-11-2014, 03:15 AM   #1
brojaysimpson
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How to proceed on flop after cold calling a 3bet.

1-2 NL at a room I'm nows regular in. Hand just ended.

Hero was playing at this table before I left for dinner then came back. I previously cashed out $450 when I hit a straight draw that I had odds to call and bombed the river, I was called and was good. My new session is just about a trainwreck in slow motion. Hero muced a 56QQJadter I limped the button and bet pot on flop and turn when villain 1 shows A4 high. Hero also cbet then bombed the river on a 49Q5A board. Hero showed 78 high when annoying player I can't stand folds.

Villain 1 - on vacation, doesn't have great fundamentals pre flop, may call 1 street post flop light but is playing pretty straight forward yet fishy. He's been opening lighter than average and overvaluing hands preflop.

Villain 2 - winning player I know from my old room. Not an amazing player but doesn't usually get out of line. He probably views hero as someone who calls down light and can be dangerous when playing well but fishy when tilting.

Villain 1 and 2 are $200 effective. Hero covers.

The hand -

Preflop: villain 1 opens to $20 utg+2. Villain 2 raises to $45 in MP. Hero has JJ and flat calls. Villain 1 calls.

Note - I think villain 2 is 3betting here fairly light. 99+ AQ+ to isolate villain 1.

Flop: 2d2cQh

Action checks to hero...?
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Old 02-11-2014, 04:23 AM   #2
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Re: How to proceed on flop after cold calling a 3bet.

If you think V2 is 3-betting light to isolate V1, then 4 bet pre. As played, I would either bet smallish or shove depending on Vs tendencies. With two flop checks, I'm thinking either someone's got pocket Qs or we're ahead. Would they check AA or KK? How likely is it that they're slowplaying QQ? How much would they call with AK? Those are the questions that would shape my decision.
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Old 02-11-2014, 04:32 AM   #3
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Prob checking back but im a nit

Is a pfr to 20$ standard in that game? Seems a bit high
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Old 02-11-2014, 05:00 AM   #4
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yeah i agree 4 bet pre if you feel v2 is light...as played since v1 is also in the hand check back and evaluate turn... fold to a bet from v1 .. thin decision vs v2...shove / fold

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Old 02-11-2014, 06:46 AM   #5
brojaysimpson
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If we 4bet am I raising to $200? Seems big. Can we 4bet to $120 and call all 5bets?
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Old 02-11-2014, 07:30 AM   #6
venice10
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Re: How to proceed on flop after cold calling a 3bet.

Are you set mining with JJ pf?

This is either a 4 bet or fold. Against the ranges you give, you're a slight favorite, so it isn't wrong to raise if you can get AK and AQ to fold their equity. On the flop, you have the worst equity of the three of you. c/f. Which is why you raise or fold pf.
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Old 02-11-2014, 07:50 AM   #7
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Re: How to proceed on flop after cold calling a 3bet.

Lots going on here ...

Agree ... dont know if $20 is 'standard' opening bet for table or V1 ...

Without knowing above, it's tough to 4-bet into a 'large' opening bet and then be willing to fold to a shove, especially if V2 calls the shove, right? A min-type 4-bet to $90 would send enough of a message and yet still give us room to fold to a shove unless we have a history that V2 might take advantage of by shoving us off our hand.

With V1 flatting we can eliminate AA/KK IMO, so QQ-/AK ... AQ? ... lowest end of his range?
With V2 checking Flop do we gain any knowledge? Not really, but I would include AQ in his range of 'light' 3-betting I think.

This is a spot where you have to decide if you are going all the way or not. With $135 in the pot and opponents with only $150 behind there isn't a lot of room to work around things here. I dont like to give 2 opponents free cards in this spot as even if the A/K dont hit the Turn anything below could give someone a set.

Would these guys 'expect' you to bet here while slow playing AA/KK(V2) or QQ(V1)? I dont see V2 slow playing AQ unless he is also being cautious of V1 slow playing AA/KK.

If you bet I think $75 is enough to get their attention (50% of remaining stack) ... and then you can fold to a shove. This costs you some extra money as opposed to 4-bet/folding PF but at least you got to see the Flop to set mine.

Obv if you shove you are only going to be called when behind as I dont see a fish or (maybe) V2 getting it in with AK with only 2 cards to see ... and no other draws as of yet. Does shoving ever get KK/AQ to fold, probably not. Do you shove with a Xx2x ... NO. So I dont really see the advantage of shoving this as you are giving up any value you can get from 88-TT/AK perhaps.

Checking gives the free card to 2 opponents and then you can make the same decisions on the Turn if it comes a blank.

I want to bet here ... $65 to $75 ... and probably fold to a shove. If your image is to the point where they think you are betting with AK here, then you may need to call. But if they would 'know' that with a pot of this size you arent messing around then you need to fold to a shove here even though you are calling $85 into $340 for 2 cards.

The only person who 'should' have AA/KK here is V2 .. not V1 and not Hero ... but I cant see V2 checking AA/KK/AQ/KQ even on this board.

Bet $65 > Check > Shove ... GL
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Old 02-11-2014, 09:07 AM   #8
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Re: How to proceed on flop after cold calling a 3bet.

I think we're giving V1 + V2 way too much credit. V1 opens light and overvalues hands. V2 is maybe trying to isolate V1. V1 could be very weak. He opens for $20 and it comes back him only needing to put in $25 to see 3 cards with a $135 pot. He's calling close to 100%. I think we have V1's range crushed.

I would even go as small as $40-50 on a flop bet (unless you expect a CR more than like 25% of the time). I hate giving a free card here. I want to keep control of the hand, get rid of possible turned sets, and possibly get rid of AK. Plus, it's an easy fold on the all-in CR. Checking the flop is basically giving up on the hand. We should have just folded pre if we're going to surrender on this flop. If we check the flop, V2 can easily steal the pot on the turn with his mid PPs and his AK. We have no choice to fold to a turn bet if we check the flop.
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Old 02-11-2014, 11:36 AM   #9
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Re: How to proceed on flop after cold calling a 3bet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
Are you set mining with JJ pf?

This is either a 4 bet or fold. Against the ranges you give, you're a slight favorite, so it isn't wrong to raise if you can get AK and AQ to fold their equity. On the flop, you have the worst equity of the three of you. c/f. Which is why you raise or fold pf.
This. You can't really trap with JJ against two players unless someone's a maniac who will bluff any flop and barrel. I would 4bet to $80 pre and get it in on most flops including that one. May or may not call a shove pre depending on whether you think he can jam AK
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Old 02-11-2014, 11:38 AM   #10
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Re: How to proceed on flop after cold calling a 3bet.

You could even 3bet to $70 if villain can't read that as a big PP. if they both fold, you win 35bb. If they shove you probably have to fold. But he'll probably flat a lot which is good for you
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Old 02-11-2014, 12:09 PM   #11
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Re: How to proceed on flop after cold calling a 3bet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brojaysimpson View Post
If we 4bet am I raising to $200? Seems big. Can we 4bet to $120 and call all 5bets?



Stick it all in. You would rather never flip with AK AQ KQss if you can help it.
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Old 02-11-2014, 12:52 PM   #12
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Re: How to proceed on flop after cold calling a 3bet.

check back flop


proabbly calling down after this
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Old 02-11-2014, 03:54 PM   #13
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Re: How to proceed on flop after cold calling a 3bet.

Grunch

Eh... Stacks make this kinda tough to play. Both players have ~$150 behind and the pot is ~$135? Both players have shown strength at this point, although I imagine that you likely have V2 beat at this point. I would probably check it back and evaluate the turn. The only really back cards for you are A's and K's. Tricky spot.
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Old 02-11-2014, 05:18 PM   #14
brojaysimpson
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Yea, villain 2 never has me beat unless QQ. This was a weird spot preflop but now that I think about it more I'm probably never folding if I flop an overpair so I think a 4bet is really best.
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