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Old 03-07-2017, 10:53 AM   #1
answer20
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How often to fire on Turn? IP v OOP

V and Hero have lots of history. V typically plays OMC/Nitty but does have his days/hands when he can get out of line .. especially if he's up and playing with 'other peoples chips'. V is up slightly for this session, but also had good session earlier in day at another venue while playing with Hero.

Hero is seen as LAG, plays whole deck PF but does have a tendency to shut down on Turn or River if board hits perceived V ranges.

This 1/2 game plays very LAG with a lot of limp calling of 3-bets of 'any' size.

If it's not too much for one thread I want to see replies for playing this hand from Hero's spot both IP and OOP ... But hand was played IP on B.

OTTH ... 5 limps including V in MP. Hero raises to $16 on B. V and CO both call. Basically $50 in the pot.

Flop is J96 Hero holds AJ

Check, Check, Hero decides to overbet $48. V sort of hems and haws, looks at cards twice. Hero's impression is V thinks it's a steal and 'finally' calls. CO folds.

Turn is K .. J96 .. $150 in pot. V has $280 behind and Hero covers.

V checks board, checks cards and Checks more normally than on Flop. V range 'should' be both flush&strt draws/overcards/sets. V has a history of not betting made hands into boards like this, even with the nuts .. and most certainly wouldn't be betting Kx hands here OOP. I think V would probably bet here with QT but may wait til River to make sure flush doesn't hit.

How often does Hero fire if IP and OOP? Thanks ... GL

Last edited by answer20; 03-07-2017 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 03-07-2017, 12:13 PM   #2
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Re: How often to fire on Turn? IP v OOP

Stack sizes make this somewhat awkward. If you bet again your are close to committed. If you bet $80 on the turn, villain calls and then shoves river you are looking at calling $200 to win $510. OOP I would check this almost all of the time and try to get to showdown cheaply, the bets are more bluffs then value. IP I would bet about 1/4 of the time and check the rest. The plan being to check river when I bet turn and possibly go for thin value on river when I check turn.

If you can represent betting a straight draw with the overbet on the flop then betting the turn is more credible. In most cases villains will correctly read it as a weakish made hand worried about the many possible possible draws.
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Old 03-07-2017, 04:11 PM   #3
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Re: How often to fire on Turn? IP v OOP

Having trouble putting him on a hand. Not sure he can call with worse at this point after our big overbet on flop. I think you have to check here and evaluate river.

How tight exactly is this guy preflop? Can he have offsuit broadway cards or A9o?

If not, we have blocked QhJh, QdJd, Ah9h, Ac9c. Leaving two combos of QJs, two A9s and three 9Ts. Can he have the same hand as us or would he have raised pre?

Can he check-raise bluff here? Many diamond draws are now combo draws if they weren't already.

I believe QT is combinatorially the most likely holding for villain at this point but you say he would probably bet that so I'm really at a loss at this point, which makes it a check for me.
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Old 03-07-2017, 04:43 PM   #4
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Re: How often to fire on Turn? IP v OOP

Would he semi-bluff the turn with his draws? If not, then I think you can bet $80 and fold to a shove. You can get called by worse, since he still has plenty of draws in his range, as well as a few weaker Jacks. If he is capable of a check-raise semi-bluff with his draws, then I would check back.

OOP I probably check and hope it checks through. If villain bets half pot or more, I like a fold.
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Old 03-08-2017, 03:25 AM   #5
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Re: How often to fire on Turn? IP v OOP

I bet about $75 and that's the last of the money I put in this pot.
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Old 03-08-2017, 12:03 PM   #6
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Re: How often to fire on Turn? IP v OOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZockenRobot View Post
Having trouble putting him on a hand. Not sure he can call with worse at this point after our big overbet on flop. I think you have to check here and evaluate river.
How tight exactly is this guy preflop? Can he have offsuit broadway cards or A9o?
If not, we have blocked QhJh, QdJd, Ah9h, Ac9c. Leaving two combos of QJs, two A9s and three 9Ts. Can he have the same hand as us or would he have raised pre?
Can he check-raise bluff here? Many diamond draws are now combo draws if they weren't already.
I believe QT is combinatorially the most likely holding for villain at this point but you say he would probably bet that so I'm really at a loss at this point, which makes it a check for me.
1) Leaning towards a looser V range when 'up' ... Agree he wont call a bet here without a better hand or increased equity from the K.
2) Again, looser when up ... Broadway? yes, A9o? no
3) Def would not 3-bet (and probably not raise) AJ PF
4) No c/r bluffs in this guys arsenal (unless short stacked) ... been 10 years of history
5) He would bet QJd for sure, maybe other QJ 30% of time. GL
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Old 03-08-2017, 12:13 PM   #7
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Re: How often to fire on Turn? IP v OOP

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Originally Posted by iversonian View Post
I bet about $75 and that's the last of the money I put in this pot.
Even though I miss some additional value on the River 'sometimes' (only if I improve) I think I bet 85-95 since he would have to break into a full stack of reds to call ... and with this guy the physcology of breaking that stack would tell me if really has something here as opposed to a weak draw or 9x hand that will fold.

It really sounds dumb to maybe miss out on a potentially weaker call of 75 as opposed to confirming that I need to shut down on the River by betting 85 and him calling when I'm beat or confirm to be more wary of a draw. I guess it makes me less likely to cry call a River bet when I bet more on the Turn. GL

Last edited by answer20; 03-08-2017 at 12:25 PM.
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Old 03-08-2017, 12:20 PM   #8
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Re: How often to fire on Turn? IP v OOP

As it turns out ... I did check through to the River ... 10 hits

J96 .. K .. T .. $150 in pot

V purses lips, checks cards 'again' and reluctantly checks.

I am now putting V on Kx or better, but not flush. How often do we turn our hand into a bluff? I know we can sell the flush, especially after checking the Turn based on our history. GL
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Old 03-08-2017, 12:47 PM   #9
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Re: How often to fire on Turn? IP v OOP

The river doesn't just complete the flush, it also puts a one-liner to a straight. You could have AQ here, having cbet the flop. And, of course, you could have the flush. But I do think it's likely that villain has at least two pair. He wasn't calling your flop bet with air.

I like a big bluff here if you think he's the type to fold on a scary board. Bet $100 and put him to a difficult decision. A bet of $100 only has to work 40% of the time to be profitable. I think you're getting that many folds.
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Old 03-08-2017, 05:14 PM   #10
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Re: How often to fire on Turn? IP v OOP

bet to take him off a king? what king does he have? AK? K8? do those hands make sense? you have 2ptk. check behind with your SHV.
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