1/2 in the casino, Friday night, full table

V in CO (has me covered): mid 30’s male, second most aggressive player at the table besides me. I’d say he’s LAG, with leaks. Calls too much with suited trash pre. Saw him call a cbet on the flop with one over and a weak kicker. He’s here to gamble basically.

Hero in SB ($350): mid 20’s male, playing TAG. Only hand I can remember showing down so far is Aces. Another v (not the one in question here) donked turn, I called him down on the river and my aces were good. Been the most aggressive player at the table, c-betting most flops and taking them down.

Limper in middle position, V limps in CO, Hero in the SB looks down at 99. I make it $15 to go, limper in MP folds and V in CO calls.

Flop ($34) is KK9

I bet $25…

Looking back on the hand now I realize what a stupid play this was. But in the heat of the moment I was not thinking properly. My question is how much EV did I lose here?

Also, if I had not been a complete moron and checked the flop, what is the best line going forward? For both V checking and betting on the flop.

if you're the most aggro at the table then why not cbet?! DUCY?

It just didn't work this time. Your hope is that someone has Kx and can't fold trips. You made the most +EV play. Otherwise, you're going to have to check it down and hope someone calls your "bluff" on the river. Not going to be as profitable.

I agree, bet is fine. Hope v holds a k or draw.

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What is the point of raising preflop?

Bout tree fiddy.

Seriously, flop has FD and paired board and you are aggro. V has been seen to call light. And you think you should check you flopped boat? Your bet was perfect. Lets you play for stacks v's any K, and big pots against FDs (stacks if they hit) and PPs.

The few bucks you might have got out of a SP are nothing in comparison.

What? To make money

Do we make money when we don't flop a set?

What do we do when the flop comes AKJ?

Surprised everyone is saying to bet here. This hand has been really eating me up.

I am aggro, but I also think I have a winning image and I think that overrides the aggro. So people tighten up more rather than think I am FOS

Multiway I love leading this flop. FD's and Kings are obviously coming along for the ride and very likely for at least one of them to be out there. But heads up, I think its more likely that this flop completely missed v's hand. And if he doesn't have anything, this seems like the easiest fold in the world. Kings have to be in my range bc I am the pre flop aggressor and there are two of them out there. That's a scary board and an aggressive, winning player just bet the pot? I'm folding that all day long if I am v

If he has a King, I can't see him checking through on the flop. I feel like I am only losing value from missed flush draws. If the flush hits and he has it, I could see this guy getting his stack in still (he wants to gamble), tho less likely than if I build the pot. So by checking I under rep my hand, give him a chance to bluff and/or improve. This seems way better to me, but idk everyone is saying to bet

FFS this is 1/2 man - no need to over think anything

just bet/bet/bet

Reread your description of V. C-betting flop also gets value out of floats.

He's an aggro V and can have plenty of gutters, FDs and kings which will often raise over your bet. Bloating the pot when both yours and his ranges are wide is a good thing. Checking might let him bluff but it's probably not at a frequency much greater than his floats/semi bluffs anyway. It doesn't even need to be due to the fact that the pot will be larger and you're fairly deep.

What hands do you think you can get value from on later streets if you check? Only reason to check would be if you think Villain will do your betting for you. Since heads up I don't think checking is horrible, but prefer a bet. If you cbet this hand you will get value from flush draws, Kx, 9x, TT+ and vs very fishy players straight draws and lower pairs as well.

100bb deep, checking is probably fine because its not hard to get the money in Ott and otr. However 175bb deep, you could lose value vs Kx if you check back. Your bet is good

It would be different if the flop was 339

Hopefully you understand.

Stop being results oriented.

Grunch:

There is nothing wrong with the C bet here. I like the bet sizing through out as well. The whole point to C betting with a wide range on the flop is so we can bet our monsters and get looked up a little lighter. If you are C betting all night and then check this flop, I am immediately going to assume you have either QQ, AA, or a K minimum and I will shut down.

C betting here will get you paid off by a king, you just got unlucky for V not to have cards he can continue with. Sometimes monster hands just don't get paid.

They're countered by the times we flop 852. We still c-bed, as there's little reason to feel we're still behind. It sucks to play like this out of the blinds, but it sucks allot worse when the flop comes like it did, V has a K, and there's only $3 in the pot after rake because we over-limped. If we then proceed cautiously so as not to scare V off by checking (as Op laments he failed to do), we've lost 2 whole streets to shovel money in. Also, if the flops comes KK8, we c-bet our two-pair hand, and V folds, we still picked up a few righteous BB's for betting the best hand.

I actually think this is a check on the flop. At most you want to bet 15, you bet 25 into ~30 which is very close to pot. That certainly reps a K bc you're not making that bet with a flush draw on an already paired board OOP. If you said your image is TAG then you wouldn't put your money in bad and he should know that, so why rep a K there? You flopped a monster and have to ask yourself, do I want the 30 dollar pot or do I want his whole stack? To get most value out of the hand let him bet into you and check raise the river for most value. Even still you opened to 15 from EP, so if you do have K in your range they are certainly strong like AK or KQ and the least. He limp called you so his range of K's can't be stronger than yours or he would let you know. Can't assume that he doesn't think at all just because he's aggressive. This is a definite check all the way to the river. If anything make it seem like you are the one calling for the FD or or you have any other pair that doesn't believe he has a King.

ok first, if you are cbetting these paired boards often, you can adjust your bet size and legitimately just bluff half pot.

to this hand: well if you think about it you really have the board crushed. very hard for villain to have a strong hand.

checking the flop really dominates betting. consider the possibilities of V's hands. what legitimate hand can he have, where betting gets all his money, but checking does not? and obviously if his hand is weak, checking gets more.

by the way, part of the difficulty here, is that you are OOP. since you are in the SB, just keep in mind that raising preflop is not mandatory here, by any means. even on a "dream" 852 board, if you're oop with 99 you're still walking on eggshells.

lol ok, but I'm trying to up my game man


I think that's what was running through my mind live, but now when I think about it, KKx seems like too scary a board for him to call with air against an aggressive player with a winning image


I def think he's betting Kx if I check flop. Only losing value from spade draws. After the turn there could be a second flush draw, more straight draws, or he could pair and think hes good because I checked the flop. He can't have TT+ here b/c he c/c pre and I don't think he is calling with air here.


I can't really see him folding Kx if I bet into him. But also if I check on the flop that's gotta make him feel even better about his trips, especially since he c/c pre and likely has a weak kicker with his king. So for that reason I don't feel like I am losing too much value to Kx by checking flop


To everyone, if we don't slowplay this flop, what flops are we slowplaying? I smashed this flop, there's virtually no chance that V can beat me and he has most likely wiffed on the flop himself. If we take away the flush draw, does that justify a slowplay?

Ummmm....really? What if an Ace, King, Queen, Jack, or Ten comes on the turn? How strong is your hand then? Much different than how strong it would be if Ten+ comes out on the turn for this hand:

We just flopped a boat. Our purpose should be to get max value from a STRONG hand on 3 streets, not minimal value for 2 streets from a weakish 2 pair hand that we hope he hits on the turn. When I flop big like this I want to play for stacks. How do we do that?

Well, if we check and he checks then that decreases the size of the bets that we can reasonably make on the turn and river. Ok, so what if we check and he bets...then what? He now controls the betting. If we raise him our hand is face up as AK+. If villain plays correctly, he should fold flush draws and weakish kings to our raise. If we let him bet then we are likely to play for stacks only when we have the worst of it.

BTW, the way you are advocating play 99 is the exact way the vast majority of live fish play when they hit a King or better on this flop. When you slow play you are actually playing your hand more face-up than if you were to lead out.

Also, it should be noted that there are scare cards that can hit the turn even for a King such as a flush draw which could end up making the turn go check check since you don't control betting.

Betting is best option

When I see an aggro check a flop like this I get suspicious

I'm cbetting this flop, 100% of the time, with 100% of my range.

Ok I think you are ranging V incorrectly b/c most of those are not scare cards. He l/c preflop, cant have TT+, KQ+ and probably not even KJ. He raises a lot pre. But I am realizing now that I did not have as much of a cinch on the hand as I originally thought. Kx is a big part of his range (~20%?) and I am not even 4:1 favorite against that hand

Still I think if I check and he checks the flop, Kx is not really in his range anymore and I could safely slowplay. I would hope for an A or a heart on the turn and probably lead out regardless. But I do not feel as bad about leading the flop now after your comment and thinking about it some more


Ok good points. I think you are giving this particular villain too much credit, because I think he would get stacks in with trips K's in most cases but I concede the other points. I was underestimating how much Kx made up his range and overestimating how likely I was to win the hand. And also I did not give enough consideration to the fact that I have a very good chance of winning a big pot vs. Kx and probably won't win much more vs. any other hand. Thanks

You'd be shocked at what people will call you down with. The best thing you can do is overbet flop. Overbet turn. Shove river. A lot of players will be unable to fold 2 pair.

When you bet the flop the fish will put you on a bluff, a flush draw, or a made hand. So they will call with a pair (or they are just so bad that they only think about their own hand, or they just can't believe that you outflopped them). Turn brick. If they called the flop, they are calling a brick turn. Well, by the river they've already invested so much money that psychologically they will have great difficulty folding.

Imagine that a player slow played a hand like AA or QQ preflop. Unless they peg you as a nit they are going to have a real hard time folding on a KK9ss4x2x board as an example if you bet bet bet. If you check raise, then it's an easy fold even for the fish.