The reason for making this post is very simple.

I used to play online poker, was good, made money, quit in 11'.


Started to go the casinos for fun last 2 weeks. I've never gone to casinos before. Then I started coming to 2+2 again to read up on live differences to online and such. Been reading alot of threads/posts/advice about LLSNL. Biggest concern is following:

The vast majority of things written in sticky form, in bulk bullet-form, about LLSNL were written/posted in 2011, some 2012, some even earlier. This makes me think with Black Friday, the advancement even more so of poker knowledge etc just how much LLSNL 15' has changed since 11' LLSNL..?

So I'm here posting this thread in LLSNL to get some thought and reflection from the people who play LLSNL the last 4+ or even 3or2+ years on how similar/identical or different the game is now as to years past.

TLDR: I wanna know how much the games has changed for LLSNL in past years because the majority of sticky advice/posts/threads are 2011 and earlier. Thanks



Thank you very much, looking very forward to your opinions.

I have noticed basically zero difference in actual game play. Bad regs are much more likely to know poker lingo now, but they still wildly miss apply it.

The only real difference I've noticed is that almost everyone knows what a c-bet is now, and therefore it has a bit less FE than it used to, though not much since so many Vs were sticky with any piece even before they knew what a c-bet was. I -bet less than I used to HU or 3-way and basically c-bet air into 3+ PF callers approximately never.

I agree with even the fish knowing that a cbet is FOS. Thats why the players who take proper betsizing into account as well as a plan for all streets are the players who are really crushing todays game.

In other words, if you are making a cbet only to hope and pray they fold, it's better to just check/fold because more players are sticky today imo.

Other than that, the games are pretty much the same from a few years ago.

I don't think live poker has changed all that much in that timeframe, at least not anywhere near how much online poker has changed in the same timeframe. Exploitatively bet/folding for thin value is still the bread and butter of winning in LLSNL.

Even if the stickies were outdated, until you 100% master that information, they are still immensely valuable.

I figure I'm about 25% there...

My games have changed dramatically but mostly due to player burnout. The whales of 2011 are either broke or in prison. Mostly prison in my case. What's left is slightly better competition. The principles in the stickies still applies I'd say. It just might not be so wildly profitable. 4 years in live poker is about 6-12 months in online world.

Completely agree.

My games are still very profitable. There are still multiple good spots at every table, albeit some better than others (table selection). Like Garick stated, a large number of regs have been exposed to some terminology via various channels entertainment, but have no idea how to apply it. I hear "implied odds" or the idea of being "priced in" so unbelievably misconstrued, it's just the norm now.

IMO, the stickies are great and still very much applicable. Are there concepts that are more in-depth than the stickies? I would certainly say so. But in LLSNL, the stickies are an excellent framework of how to approach and beat the game. But it's up to us to put in the study time.

The games are good.

I feel like I may be uniquely qualified to answer this question, as I have stumbled upon a poker time warp, where I can magically jet back to 2005.

For years now I've been playing at Foxwoods. But recently, No Limit Hold em has been legalized where I live in NH. Previously the half dozen or so charity card rooms around the state only ran limit games, and tournaments.

What that means, is that in Southern NH, we are having a repeat of the poker-boom. Suddenly there is a HUGE population of players who have done nothing but play limit, and tourneys for the last decade or more. Transitioning to No Limit is insanely difficult for these guys. Calling stations abound, like you would not believe.

I had a lapse in judgement once and turned my 99 into a bluff on a board of QJ6Q8 and I got called down on the river, all-in, by K8 with a flush draw. In two other sessions I got paid of GIGANTICALLY by one-pair hands when I flopped two pair.

Its only been a month and I've already heard multiple folks grumbling about how the "lose too much money at this game" compared to the old 2/4 spread limit games that used to run. So I expect over time you'll see more TAG play.

And when I go to a room that's been running NL games forever, ie Foxwoods, I see a TON more of the TAG grinders than I do anywhere else.

As players evolve and competition gets better, you'll find more and more people who will take bet/fold lines, and exploiting that requires a different approach than busting the calling stations.

so to answer the OP's question, yes poker has changed, but beating poker hasn't. Every player is exploitable, you just have to think in some different ways in order to find their weakness.

There are some more sophisticated questions on the forum than the past, but at the same time 5 years ago I didn't have to explain the Baluga Theorem. Everyone knew it. We now regularly have threads where the OP clearly has no clue what to do when raised on the turn with TP.

fantastic post sir!

in vegas the general population has gotten slightly better but that is to be expected

All in.

We're running out of novice regions. When I visited Pittsburgh and Rivers was relatively new, the action and activity were insane. On a recent return trip, I couldn't believe that I was in the same place. I didn't play in Charles Town when it was new, but I've heard the legend. So, ah, enjoy it while it lasts.

soul read obv

Lots of great info in the stickies. Some of the opinions expressed were debated at the time, so it's safe to say that you can't read them expecting to find the one true way to play. Outdated info not a significant concern. Also, digging through the recent posts that get a lot of activity is very worthwhile.

The games are pretty much the same in my experience. The stickies are all very applicable - and at no point in the future would I expect 1/2 NL to progress to the point where basic strategies are not applicable.

I almost never see a decent player at 1/2 or 1/3 NL.

Id argue this is another indicator of a change.

Rather than sit at a live table in relative ignorance more players today are ending up at places like this learning what that turn raise means.

I don't know. I guess in absolute numbers that's true, but how many of them are really learning it in a way that they can apply? Not many. Most of the guys I hear talking about EV could neither define it correctly nor do an on the spot EV calc if I held a registered hand gun for which I have a concealed carry permit to their heads.

Games are very similar. I'd be more concerned with how applicable advice is to your region given that games play differently in different parts of the country/world. The one common factor I see throughout though is that the players are terrible. That will never change.

I agree with this however. Stickies written 4 years ago were based on game conditions 4-6 years ago. That was before the effects of the economic downturn wrippled through the poker economy.

In my games there are without a doubt more people who have learned to go broke slower and with less frequency. Part of that is the maturation of new rooms / player pools in the area and part simply less extra cash. The terrible players who didn't get better went broke or show up less often... Or learned to lose less.

I think games have changed enough and some people who may have been beating the game years ago haven't changed enough thus they aren't winning as much. Has the game become tougher/unbeatable? No. People have just gotten a little tighter and concepts are easy to learn/read/hear about. Thing is people are still playing bad and misapplying concepts that they can still be pounded on just not the same way that they used to be. So if you are trying to crush the game now with strat from 5 years ago I'd say it won't happen unless you play in a game that is still living in the past. You can still beat it, but it won't be for the same winrate.

As far as the stickies go they are a great starting point for 90%+ of the posters here. They probably won't make anyone a crusher, but they will give them a foundation. Gotta crawl before you walk.

what are "stickies" ? how do you locate them ?

Stickies are the threads that are "stuck" on the top of the page, instead of dropping down as the most recent post gets older. You can find them on the top of the forum home page, and they start with the word "Sticky.

Particularly valuable is the thread "best of LLSNL," which contains links to other threads that are very good.