Villain in this hand is one of the better players in this game, playing aggressive and leaning a little on the looser side. Hero has been card dead, heros image is seen as tight and always having it. Hero has history w villain in the past making big bluffs vs villain but did not show them. The times hero has showed down against villain he has always had the goods.

Hero starts hand with 1100 villain covers $10 straddle on the button SB calls hero calls from BB with Q9 villain raises to 50 from MP button calls, SB calls, hero calls.

Flop $200 4J10

Check to V who bets 145, fold to hero who raises to 310, v calls. I chose this small sizing to give us some added FE on the turn, since we should have plenty of pot equity even if the turn bricks. At this point I think v would 3b gii with AK, and is probably 3b gii with 1010 and JJ on such a wet board. I have him on qq-aa, AJ w A, KJ w k, and KQ.

Turn $820 given this info, how do we play this turn? Given the fact that we c/r the flop I think it would be good to merge our range here meaning betting the turn whether we hit or miss.

What is our plan if the turn bricks? I think shoving is a good plan. I still have 1010,JJ, and 44 in my range.
Does it change if the board pairs? If we are repping a fh would we really go all in or just make a smaller bet?
What should our checking range look like? I think q or 9 would be good cards to check here. And possibly check if an A hits?
And what about if an off suit 8 or K hits? Do we go all in or make a smaller bet?

Why do you want to play a good player OOP w/ Q9? I can't get past that part.

Too many variables depending on turn... However, if I hit, I shove (should have thought about this and gone higher on flop) -- that's why we're here w/ Q9s, right? And, I think you would have raised flop bigger with a set, but who knows if V thinks the same?

Fold pre, then fold pre again. I'd probably just flat, villain bet into 3 opponents on a board where people are very likely to continue. If I'm going to raise I'm raising large, because that is what I would do with my value hands, and playing your lines differently vs a good opponent is going to go very poorly for you.

But yeah put the money in on the turn.

I'm open shoving all turns besides non diamond A/Q/4. Our hand looks like JT and V should be folding his QQ-AA/SDs.

AP, betting most turns with 15 ways to improve + many blanks. Disagree we could have JJ/TT in our range b/c we called straddle pre. Top of our range looks like 44/JTs.

Pre - snap muck.

So you have 740 left and the pot is 770. What you do really depends on how sticky Villain will be with his top pair hands and over pairs and better draws and your tolerance for variance. Assuming he folds draws and top pair and over pairs I would probably just shove any turn and rap the table if he has something he can call with and we don't draw out.

Fold pre. Make a bigger flop raise if you are set on C/R. Make it look like you are setting up for a turn shove if a flush card doesn't come.

My question here is with that board, if you have a set or top two pair, why would you want to make it cheap for him to see the turn? That story doesn't hold up for me.

Also, do you think he would make it only $50 in MP with button, SB and you in the hand for $10 and more players behind if he has KK, AA? I think he would have made it bigger. Personally, I don't want to play KK or AA deep OOP against four players.

Anyways, I am curious to find out what happened and what vil's cards were. I wouldn't be as surprised as you if he had AKdd.

1010 or JJ doesn't make a lot of sense to me based on the flop action. Would he really raise preflop OOP with KQ?




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i could sometimes play 1010 like this only because it was a very tough 10 handed game with almost all regs. whether V knows this or not is questionable.

i can see folding to the $10 straddle, but once it gets back around to me i am in a 4 way pot closing the action with a hand that plays well multiway. if im calling the $10 im not folding in that spot.

You should be folding in that spot. You are OOP, for one. You have a bad hand that is easily dominated, for two. Not much more needed.

Fold pre, twice. Terrible hand to play oop multiway without the initiative.

This deep, I would call the flop and plan to c/r the turn. You're fine if it checks through on the turn when it bricks. You're too deep to c/r the flop, imo. You're not anywhere near commitment by just calling.

Your hand is weak so it has very little EV even when it goes limped multiway to the pot. So it does not take many limp/folds to destroy any little bit of EV you might eak out in a limped pot.

Some people have the image that they can make it $250 when it gets back to them and get folds. That is better than calling.

If you're playing in a "tough" game, you probably shouldn't be limping Q9s, and you should be raising JJ-TT pre. As played, can't expect villain to fold an overpair, but you can always try. Why are you trying to get people to fold the upper middle & top of their range?

there is nowhere to fold in this hand imo, but that is what's going to happen with button straddles

your only play is to shove every turn except the Kd or the 8d

the hand is literally playing itself imo, if you don't want to play it this way don't play in a game with a button straddle

the only other option is open pre

with the button straddle, i only started the hand with 110 bbs

i think he can fold an OP-because of our history together and my super tight image. whats the purpose of having a super tight image if youre not going to use it?

I think the flop raise was too small. On this wet a board they will never give you credit for a big made hand, everyone wants to bluff catch. Make it $425 and then shove all turns.

SPR is 5:1 going to the flop. There are hands you can get to fold, an overpair probably isn't one of them.

Secondly, I think our interpretations of super tight image are very different. If you limp Q9s in EP in a 10 handed game, I think it's fair to assume you limp a lot of other similar hands (JTs,AXs,KTs+, small pp's etc.) which wouldn't make you super tight.

If the game was aggressive enough for you to limp/call TT OOP, essentially set mining, playing Q9s OOP is exponentially more difficult.

One of the biggest preflop leaks, imo. Pot odds don't matter when you have weak position, weak cards, no initiative, and a good villain with a strong range.

preflop is a disaster

I don't really agree Q9 plays well multiway OOP. Since you are deep I see value in playing A9s but even if you get a flush with Q9, chances of someone with a higher flush is there. You will be in big pain once you make your flush and and bet strong only to get raised ai for your 200BB stack ($1,100) and lose to an A high flush. Also, most of the times even if you flop a pair, you'll be out kicked. Your likelihood of flopping a two pair or better is so small that I don't think putting almost 5% of your stack is worth it. You are making life really hard for yourself by playing these types of hands OOP IMO.


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Alright guys, lets try to get back on track. I think the consensus opinion here is that hero should have folded preflop. Given the fact that we're in the hand at a decision point on the turn though, I think we should turn our attention to that instead as it is a much more fruitful discussion than "fold pre." Personally, I think we should be shoving any turn. We took the initiative away from V and even if we brick we're going to have 15 outs (usually) going to the river. Hard to put V on a set considering how wet the board is, you would figure V would reraise to get it in on the flop. I think the shove gives us the most fold equity and when we're called we're not in terrible shape usually. If we end up making our hand, I wouldn't mind betting like 350 and shoving any river or calling a shove.

I was thinking about shoving if a small diamond hits, since v still has aa w a and Kk w k, and betting smaller if I hit sf or straight

I'ts nice to have a plan for the turn rather than just clicking buttons. One of my biggest leaks is check raising the flop here without really thinking about what to do on future streets.

Depends on the game and the opponent. Against better opponents I am just going to shove if I end up hitting my hand (flush or straight). Against opponents that don't pay as much attention to bet sizing and remaining stacks I would probably bet $400.

Most bricks I am going to be betting. I guess pushing gives you the most FE on the turn. I would check an A, Q, or 9 but bet everything else.