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How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL How To Crush Small-Stakes Live NL

02-21-2012 , 12:21 PM
Generally, I think most SSLNL games lack the conditions that makes the LAG style described by the OP profitable. Still, I'm loving the discussion. Am I the only one that gets more out of these types of exchanges than simple hand analysis? There have been a few good theoretical threads lately.
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02-21-2012 , 12:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by waxie
I think most SSLNL games lack the conditions that makes the LAG style described by the OP profitable.
IMO opposite is true. Most 1/2 or 2/5 live tables are rife with the conditions that make this not only profitable, but the most profitable strategy.

It is generally accepted that one should "never bluff a fish," but this advice leaves money on the table when the fish doesn't have anything -- which is most of the time. If that were not so, continuation bets would not be profitable or advisable -- and yet they are, and they are.

This dichotomy is easily explained. The popular advice to "never bluff a fish" is wrong. The correct advice should be "never try to bluff a fish off of what he thinks is a good hand," assuming you know what "bluff" really means and you know the true relative value of what the fish thinks is a good hand.

You must know the difference. This requires hand reading. Being able to read hands well is a basic skill for any good poker player regardless of their playing style, but for the LAG it doesn't just spell the difference between profit and more profit, is spells the difference between life and death.

The low limit live tables are rife with the conditions that make the intelligent LAG a monster because of several factors:

1) Bad-Passive opponents spew dead money preflop and often on the flop. The good LAG claims this money by playing aggressively in position.
2) Bad-Aggressive players spew money on every street. The good LAG maximizes value against these players be protraying a maniac image and getting more than their fair share of value with thin hands.

Most live low limit players are some variant of one of the two above.

The guy who calls a flop cbet from OOP with Ace high, trying to spike an Ace, is bad-passive. All the money he gives off preflop and on the flop is dead. It belongs to the LAG on the button.

The set-mining nit is bad-passive. He is only profitable by running the nuts in to a maniac, a bad-aggressive player, or coolering people. Running bottom set against a bad-passive player with TPTK is effectively a cooler.

The guy who decides to take a stand against our Hero, who has been steamrolling the table, becomes a bad-aggressive player when he ships 45 on a QQ5 board.
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02-21-2012 , 01:02 PM
QFT to above post.
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02-21-2012 , 01:29 PM
IMO Riverman's advice it's really a specific style that needs specific conditions to work:

- you have a bigger bankroll than usual (because variance will be bigger)
- everyone is 200+ bb deep
- most players are nits/rocks/scared money players
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02-21-2012 , 01:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Svizac
IMO Riverman's advice it's really a specific style that needs specific conditions to work:

[snip]

- most players are nits/rocks/scared money players
This is an indication that you don't understand the thinking behind most players' actions.

Most players are bad-passive. They are going to try to see the flop and "get there." Some will try harder to get there than others, by calling more bets. But since it's hard to make a hand in holdem, when a bad-passive player calls, that money is dead more often than not.
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02-21-2012 , 02:13 PM
One thing that must be stressed about OP's post is this: position and post flop skill

If you don't have position and don't have excellent post flop skills you cannot play in such a manner. It is just the way the game works.

There are several players in my player pool who think they are Phil Ivey and they play suited trash OOP and use this maniac image to good effect BUT you will simply never overcome the long term negative preflop value instrinsic to the hand.
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02-21-2012 , 02:17 PM
If you're sitting at a table full of short stack calling stations, don't bother trying the strategy as outlined by OP.

Which means if you're not playing in a more popular cardroom with several tables, you probably want to move along and not read this thread.
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02-21-2012 , 02:51 PM
ya, you not only have to be expert at putting on the breaks post flop sometimes,
you have to be able to put on the brakes altogether when you find yourself at the wrong table (which is common), and play TAG.

every good LAG is a expert on playing TAG.
not every good TAG is expert at playing LAG.
alone, this dymanic makes LAG play profitable.
the LAGS know what the TAGS are up to,
but not every TAG knows what the LAGs are up to.
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02-21-2012 , 03:08 PM
You are making it sound like it's obvious and easy to switch gears.

It is one of the hardest things to do in poker, hence why the top players do so well.

I second whoever said that this post may do more harm than good in this forum, because most readers of this forum can do better to have never even considered this strategy.
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02-21-2012 , 04:02 PM
This post wasnt about how to beat llsnl. It was about how to CRUSH llsnl. great post.
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02-21-2012 , 05:12 PM
Great thread guys. I was at an aggressive table (searched the forum for "aggressive table" and this thread came up) over the weekend and was looking for some help. I think I can add to this thread without hijacking it or taking it in a different direction by asking a few questions.

I played 2/5 at the Borgata this weekend, which is not my normal room. At first, I was disappointed that I sat at several tables Saturday night on a holiday weekend and didn't find them full of fish. They weren't bad tables, but not great either. Anyway, I sit down Monday afternoon at a just opened table, so everyone is 100bb deep or less. First hand, 3 way all in. Second hand, I pick up Aces, I raise $20 UTG, call, call, raise by solid regular LAG in blind to $120, I tank shove, call by $200, and call for 100bb by reg. It holds up. 5 of the next ten hands are all ins. Great table, right? I was not ready for this kind of aggression and ended the day 5 hours later down 2 buy ins. Sorry for the long winded setup. So my questions are:

What if you are at a table with 4 LAGs? I recognized this. At my normal room, I actually play LAGgy in Cutoff and button, as one poster suggested, and have been doing great the last 3 months since I opened up that part of my game. What if your positional raises are being attacked? What about called by 4 players after you who are tricky? C-bet? It was kind of terrifying in general. How do you adjust, tighten up, and get it in early? If your card dead just wait?

This table was playing more like a 5-10. I liked the action, but was quickly confused and tilted. Wasn't prepared for it, as my usual poker room is weaker, and my preflop aggression is rarely attacked. I expect this is how bigger stakes tables play, how can I adjust if I build my bankroll and want to play higher?

Also, both card rooms are 100bb max buy in, so half the table is usually 50-80 bb. If that's the case is this entire thread not applicable?
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02-21-2012 , 05:16 PM
You want to make big hands vs these guys. You don't want to play big pots with your value range. So sneak in cheap and out play them postflop.
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02-21-2012 , 05:23 PM
Thanks. My problem was that it was next to impossible to get in cheap.

I guess that leads me to another question, that some other posts have alluded to. Is the play just to embrace the variance and get in hands looking to play big hands post flop, since there's really no choice? Just make sure your rolled for a game like this, and if not, just find another less aggressive table? Otherwise, man up?
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02-21-2012 , 06:00 PM
I hope to one day play as suggested in the OP. I think the uncapped $2/5 game at my local card room is perfect for it. The game plays very deep at times.

But as of right now I am not rolled for that game and don't have the post-flop skills to take advantage of it.
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02-21-2012 , 10:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdoury
Thanks. My problem was that it was next to impossible to get in cheap.

I guess that leads me to another question, that some other posts have alluded to. Is the play just to embrace the variance and get in hands looking to play big hands post flop, since there's really no choice? Just make sure your rolled for a game like this, and if not, just find another less aggressive table? Otherwise, man up?
When I say get in cheap, that's not limping, I'm talking about 2bet pots. You want to be calling otb with high implied hands vs aggressive players.
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02-21-2012 , 11:38 PM
i dont think its even a a TAG vs LAG debate.
Harrington says both styles are essentially the same (aggression is the common denominator)
its a matter of degree, and of image (a chief reason to open lighter, ie. LAG).

so, LAG is really just playing the game, IMO.

being a nit just waiting for your nut, so that you you either win a small pot, or get it cracked, and 'f@#&* my life' is not playing the game.
you can be a winner doing this in the right games, but it should be obvious that you can more than double a winrate, compared to being a nut peddler, if you:
1] know what youre doing, and more perhaps more importantly, why youre doing it (no autopilot).
2] are disciplined (ie. have brakes)
3] avoid tilting
4] select the right games
5] are rolled

Last edited by stampler; 02-21-2012 at 11:59 PM.
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02-21-2012 , 11:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grunch
This dichotomy is easily explained. The popular advice to "never bluff a fish" is wrong. The correct advice should be "never try to bluff a fish off of what he thinks is a good hand," assuming you know what "bluff" really means and you know the true relative value of what the fish thinks is a good hand.
So spot on, and I think it can be even further clarified. The focus is on "a fish off of what he thinks is a good hand", because that's where the real problem is. The reason why people, myself included, say "Never bluff a fish" is because a fish's analysis own hand's relative strength is entirely warped and completely differerent than "ours". Some fish fall for MITB and will fold anything less than the stone nuts because their analysis always ends with the conclusion that the bettor has the nuts. Many fish, and the ones we are talking about here, either do not engage in any form of relative hand strength analysis, or if they do, engage in the most basic, simplistic forms of it in the world, and as a result, they almost always end up concluding something that to any person with any sort of understanding of poker past "ZOMG TOP PAIR, w00t!" would find idiotic.

Not to sound all Yoda-like, but it's pretty much "one must think like the fish". Hence why it's important to actually listen to them when they spew ******ed poker nonsense, because said nonsense acutally helps me figure out exactly how they analyze hands - the best example I can give, I put in spoilers to not make this post very long.

So if you're dealing with a fish who is either Level 1 (what do I have) or the most basic, easily exploitable, no depth Level 2 (my opponent bet big pre-flop, he must have JJ+, ZOMG HOW CAN HE RAISE WITH 65o, THAT IS A DONK THING TO DO ZOMGDONKAGGROONLINEIDIOTIMUSTMAKEASTANDAGAINSTHIML ATER!>!>!!1111!!!), the only bluffable spots are where you can tell a story that perfectly falls into their lines, and thus, it is also virtually impossible, no, ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE to tell a bluff story that involves them using any form of hand-reading that goes outside whatever incredibly dumb belief system they employ when trying to deduce their opponent's hand. 99% of Fish have ONE way to analyze a hand, and it's ENTIRLEY SET IN STONE, and they will never analyze a hand any other way. Figure out their system, it's exactly the same as having the exact source code to a poker bot. Obviously no two fish are exactly the same, but there are fairly easy to define and easy to exploit categories, and once you have evidence that said fish fits into one of those groups, it's a pretty good bet that he's never going to adjust his play to anything other than the style representative of that group.

In regards to LAG v. TAG, there's no right answer because it's fish dependent - the fish who won't ever fold top pair/overpair to the board but will fold anything else means that playing super-LAG on him in position makes sense, provided one shuts down instantly after being called on the flop (unless an overcard to the board comes), unless of course you have top pair beat, or even better you have top pair and all overpairs beat, in which case it's on like donkey-kong.

Spoiler:
Example: There are a significant number of fish who have an entirely defined pre-flop range, and who ALSO apply said pre-flop range to all other players even with clear evidence to the contrary - the only adjustment they make is based on amount of aggression, but it still falls into their rubic - put it this way; they probably are 20/5 (I don't have exact numbers for a VPIP for the Hellmuth Hand range, but I'm guessing it's 25); folding certain Hellmuth hands OOP, and in their minds, the most extreme tight-passive is like 15/1, the most extreme tight-aggressive is 15/15, the most extreme loose-passive is like 25/5 (the extra 5 coming from playing a few more Hellmuth hands OOP), and the most extreme loose-aggressive is 25/25.

For those who don't know, Hellmuth Hand range refers to a wallet-sized card that they sell at every Vegas gift shop that claims to be a easy-to-understand and useful guide for beginners on how to play poker correctly, as told by Phil Hellmuth, World Series of Poker Champion. The card includes a basic range of 88+, AK/AQ/KQs OOP, same hands + any two broadways and any suited Ax IP. Said fish pretty much stick to this range and in all non-limped pots, apply the same range to their opponents, period, and engage in absolutely ZERO amount of post-flop anaylsis in regards to bet-sizing/board-texture/etc - it's all pre-flop hands and nothing else; they know that people limp with much wider, but once there's been A raise, then anything outside this range is completely bizarre and clearly indicative of horrible play.

And as a result, they are very suspectable to stacking off with AK on a K44 board, but you also will almost never be able to get them off of said AK on a K6543 board, no matter how well you represented the 7. But said fish are EASILY bluffable off of other hands if you're telling a story that's based on having a Hellmuth hand pre-flop; they will fold JJ on an A-high board if you sell the story right (as in represent AQ by playing it in the way the fish would play it; the most glaring example would be Fish opens for $12 at 1/2, you 3bet to 30, fish calls, flop is all rags, fish checks, you check behind, turn A, fish bets out 30, you raise here, fish is going to go "GODDAMNIT HE HAS AK and spiked an A on the turn" and fold.

Hence the fish "making a stand" with 54 on a QQ5 board. I don't know if the fish in question is this type of player, but it certainly fits the bill. The fish has his ******ed, set-in-stone logic as to hero's hand range, and even though he's facing a maniac, HE STILL analyzes the hand within his rubric, so to him, that hero is a maniac means he just is super aggro with said hellmuth-hand range. So dumb fish villain probably convinced himself that given the board having two Q's, and given that (in dumb fish villain's mind), maniac will play any two broadways super-aggro no matter what the board texture is on flop/turn/river, the dumb fish villain concludes that his 54 is good on a QQ5 board vs. a range of TT+, any two broadways; heck that may actually be mathetmatically correct if someone wants to check)

For those still reading - the easiest way to ID these guys is to listen to their post-hand comments when someone wins a significant pot at showdown with cards well outside the Hellmuth hand range that ended up becoming relative monsters given the board; they're the ones who always scoff "64s? You play that trash for $20?" after calling a pot-sized river bet on a K53-2-T board or "How could you call a raise pre-flop with K3o?" after call a raise and then a pot-sized bet on turn and river with AQ on a Q33-x-x board, deducing that you must have flopped nut flush draw and therefore can't have any other hand that would bet in such a fashion, compeltely ignoring the circumstances that could justify such a call (although admittedly there aren't many to justify K3o in a deep cash game) That's why it's important to listen to their ******ed poker beliefs (and also why it's important to not try to point out the flaws in their logic).
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02-22-2012 , 01:40 AM
As much as I think OP's intentions are great, I do not agree this style of play is the most optimal and most profitable for the average LLSNL player.
I fully agree with and utilize the approach but what a player does pre flop heavily and primarily depends on his/ her post flop game.

Just blindly raising bunch of limpers because we are in position or calling a raise because we are in position and deep does not result in profit. It is our ability in post flop combined with position that will result in profit.
i.e. if you raise bunch of limpers in position with J 10o and don't know what to do with a flopped top pair, top two, trips, a draw or when missed, you turn yourself into a spewtard monkey.
Before venturing into realm of an aggressive positionally aware player, we need to evaluate our post flop game, and improve our game in that arena.

Know how to hand read, pot control, make value bets, make thin value bets, over bet for additional value, When to fold'em and when to hold'em, be aware of your opponents' tendencies, be aware of your image, be aware of the table dynamics, tilt control, when to change gears. Just to name a few skills needed post flop in order to make this style of game profitable.

One easy and free way of improving our game is to simply pay attention at the table when we are not involved in a hand. Think about opponent's ranges, see what they do, learn their patterns, try to get in thier heads and figure out why they do what they do, play along every hand and predict their actions, and use what your learn form them to exploit them. Once you gain the confidence in understanding your opponents, then you can start opening up your game, and taking advantage of their mistakes.

Who said raising with 810ss UTG is not profitable ?
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02-22-2012 , 09:43 AM
The OP lays out some good ideas, but there is so much more you need to be aware of and so many other skills a poker player needs to have in their arsenal for this to be effective. IMO, if you aren't a winning player, if you aren't a thinking player, then use this style sparingly until you start to improve on those skills.
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02-22-2012 , 10:38 AM
LLS is a beginners forum, so it only stands to reason that beginners are looking to improve their game. (I know I am).
even if someone doesnt feel comfortable and ready what to apply what riverman is talking about yet, it can only improve their game to be aware of it, and to have an idea what they have to work towards.
suggesting that riverman is doing harm is asinine imo.
quite the opposite.
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02-22-2012 , 10:57 AM
I always figured that every decent player should devote LAG and TAG concepts. Of course TAG is the way to go 90% of the time imo, but that 10% times, even a live 1/2 game, everyone can be a nit. This I always felt like is when you apply LAG concepts anyone agree?

My main problem is changing gears after playing LAG for an hour or so. I remember a session a while back when everyone at the table was weak tight and was just winning so many pots. Afterwards, two new players sat down but I never adjusted to their play and spewed about 25% of my stack before I realized the situation.
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02-22-2012 , 11:32 AM
The words "TAG" and "LAG" are the most misused and overused words in poker.

There is no magical cut-off between TAG and LAG. A LAG is just TAG with an arbitrarily wider range. Too often the word LAG is misused for someone who is actually a spewtard.

In a vacuum, a TAG is someone who plays roughly 15/11 pre-flop, while a LAG is more like a 22/16. Someone playing tight and limping 88 isn't a TAG, that's tight-passive.

In most situations the LAG style is the most profitable way to play, but you need to be very good postflop or you'll be constantly spewing, or missing value. You need to be very good at hand-reading, and know when to value bet thin, when to pot control, when to call down with third pair or ace-high, when to double barrell, when to hit the brakes, and when to make a big laydown. The last one is especially important, because when you play LAG you will frequently hit strong but non-nut hands, but you have to be able to fold when someone's line indicates an even stronger hand. And sometimes you'll be wrong because someone overplayed a worse hand than yours. That's ok.

Playing LAG can be very frustrating at times, and you'll have bigger swings than a tight player would. You have to maintain your compusure or you can quickly go from LAG to spewtard (does it sound like I've been there?). I play LAG because I trust myself to make better decisions postflop than my opponents. I'm usually right.
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02-22-2012 , 08:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SABR42
In a vacuum, a TAG is someone who plays roughly 15/11 pre-flop, while a LAG is more like a 22/16. Someone playing tight and limping 88 isn't a TAG, that's tight-passive.
I would debate to the ends of the Earth these stats. 22/16 can be a solid TAG player online, and is especially on the tighter side at a casino...however, most 22's are only 5's in terms of pfr. This is only twice an orbit, on average......that's quite tight. 15/11 is bordering on a nit. And, that aside, you can't even tell the difference, live, between a vpip of 22 and 15.

Now, you want to talk about a 30/25 or even 30/20 player? That's getting up into LAG territory. I've seen looser win at microstakes and be incredibly dangerous to play against. Show me a 30/25 in a b&m, with good stack management, and I'll show you close to the most dangerous player in the room for the 1/2 stakes.
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02-22-2012 , 08:24 PM
meh, 30/25 is too far into spewtard territory when 9-handed.

It may work vs bad players but vs me it's pretty exploitable.
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02-22-2012 , 08:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chopper5654
I would debate to the ends of the Earth these stats. 22/16 can be a solid TAG player online, and is especially on the tighter side at a casino...however, most 22's are only 5's in terms of pfr. This is only twice an orbit, on average......that's quite tight. 15/11 is bordering on a nit. And, that aside, you can't even tell the difference, live, between a vpip of 22 and 15.

Now, you want to talk about a 30/25 or even 30/20 player? That's getting up into LAG territory. I've seen looser win at microstakes and be incredibly dangerous to play against. Show me a 30/25 in a b&m, with good stack management, and I'll show you close to the most dangerous player in the room for the 1/2 stakes.
What? You obviously have not played online or have a clue what stats mean. I didn't at first neither. Until I used the poker edge hud. Where they have all the numbers labeled, to tell you what a tag/lag/maniac etc with icons.

As for lag ranges the icon bomb(lag) shows up. At around 20%-25% with no less then 18pfr, 25%-29% is hyper lag aka bluffer. 30%-50% is maniac. A little guy with red eyes and a green face shows up.

Try learning the stats it will make you better all around player. Your obviously way off on your vpip/pfr.
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