Those labels are chosen by the program (and probably editable by the user) and are somewhat arbitrary. What SABR and Chopper are discussing is at what VPIP/PFR levels to apply certain labels in live play. Software doesn't settle the debate.

All numbers are labeled. You apply the same to live as in online. Its no difference, even with stats online you still look for showdown hands. People always change gears or play different cards.

It doesn't matter if the numbers are labeled. The point is that the labeling is arbitrary (it might be wrong). It can change with circumstances and people can have a different opinion.

In the heyday of Party, a TAG was playing 21% of his hands (limit anyway). When Party shut down to US players, 17% was suddenly considered LAG, and "TAG" play went down from there as the games became nothing but super-multi-tabling rakeback pros.

There is definitely a difference between live and online. These labels are all relative and the games are much different from each other.

Great post riverman.

Like how strait forward the advice was. Nothing ground breaking but a great overview on most LL games.

I will- it isn't. Aggression in position, not out of position. When I get to UTG+2 I sigh and wait for aces. And I generally have a very loose table image- I once had a guy tell me "you don't really care about money, do you?"

I play live games a living hes completely wrong. I see a lot of young guys play like this and they get felted all day long. The reason they end up with a big stack is they sit there and rebuy all day long to try get there money back i seen them lose 1000s of dollars at like 1-3.

This is how REALLY win at live 9 max games. THis is not 6 max. So your isolating against one player. So raising with position does nothing in 9 max because you usually get 2 callers. Once you miss the flop if you continuation bet your just leaking all your money away. There loose passive for a reason. They call raises. If you guys play this way i guarantee you will not end up winning much money.

In live games you can limp. People dont raise much cause to many people call the raise. So you have to limp in and flop huge and if someone raises its not big deal fold. Your not losing much of your stack so its not a gamble. And if people are 3 betting like this from position with any 2 cards you can go ahead and limp aa kk qq and then when raises you min re raise and he has odds to call. he thinks i have position im in a wonderful spot and he flops top pair with 10 j and you pot the flop he call pot turn and hes pretty much all in. you will stack people off all day long who play like him. Position really doesn't matter that much in live games. Your not normally up against players who are going to pound away bluffing you off hands. They either have a hand or they don't. Its pretty much abc poker basically

It sounds boring but you want to wait for aces, kings, queens, ak, some suited connectors is fine to 3 bet. QK is probably the bottom of my range all 3 bet but i will mix in some suited connectors. But if you miss the flop check flop fold turn if he leads and you have nothing. YOU dont' want to risk a bunch of your stack if you dont flop much. Once you get caught up in that you will be a lot of tough spots where they dont call they raise and you have a pair and a gut shot or a flush draw and they raise and you have to call with good odds and they jam turn and you fold losing a bunch of your stack.

And then dont limp hands like kj q10, a 10, even a j. Post flop your just in a bad spot. If you hit top pair and someone barrels flop and turn you really dont 'know where your at. I like limping 2,3 suited and 4,5 suited and 5,6 suited you hit 2 pair or better your sitting pretty. People dont like 2,3 but its a great hand if you flop a 45 or two 2s or 2 3s. its the last thing they will think is in your hand.

Then comes to the point of trick value. You want to play hands that are tricky where you can stack someone off. You play k j a king flops he bets flop you call. he check turn you lead he folds he can easily put you on a king. So just let those hands go.

I do this every day those guys who raise with position i live games have no chance. If this guys winning hes playing at a very bad place where he can isolate in 9 max against one player. where i play no chance. I raise yesterday 3 times in live game had at least 3 callers each time. So gl with that.

1) Please learn how to properly communicate via the written word so what you have to say doesn't come off as being from a complete idiot. Grammar, spelling, and proofreading matters.

2) Even if the above was grammatically correct with no spelling errors and was somehow akin to the wit and style of Truman Capote, the poker strategy discussed would still be bad advice.

1] the unimaginative 10/20 grinder-regs at commerce who show up at 11am and nut-peddle all day long are making $20/hr. (some ppl on this board are making way more than that in 2/5)

2] a top shelf LAG, like Shane Rose (DP91) can make $150-$200/hr in the same game.

3] expert LAGS like Bart are prolly making @$100+ in the $1500 cap 5/10

1. NBA regular.

2. Kobe Bryant.

3. Kevin Durant.

Of course we all want to be Kobe Bryant or Kevin Durant, but getting into NBA in itself is already an accomplishment.

Some of us will be better served knowing that we won't ever have the ability or even the time to train to become Kobe or Kevin.

I'd rather watch paint dry.

[ ] winning attitude

[x] losing attitude

Bart would be flattered by the comparison.
lol. (prolly prefer Kevin Garnett, tho).
One thing about him, is that he will share hands with his audience that he played horribly, whereas most ppl would keep it to themselves out of embarrassment.
theres nothing magical in what the pros are doing, other than making more good decisions in the aggregate of poker decisions (including self management).
if thats not something realistic to strive for, then give up poker, imo.
Kobe wasnt even a star player when he entered the NBA, like Durant, or even Ellis.
it took him some time. (late bloomer)

anyways, my point was that a good LAG can make wayyyy (5-!0X) more then double what a nut peddler can (admittedly not TAG, more like weak/tight).
I originally suggested double earlier, and was nay-sayed.

lmao


Why wouldnt a human being have the ability to reach the highest level's of poker, given the human being does not have mental problems?

they dont want to do the work?
they dont want have to make sacrifices?
they have no card sense?
they have too much overhead?

NL has to be one of the easier poker games, too. its not that hard.
the games not the problem , its your own leaks (including not wanting to win enough).

Where I can see this in casinos all day long, it's completely ******ed advice. You have just pissed on the pages of every book ever written. You have also just desecrated every professional poker player across the planet. To suggest limping 23s and other hidden hands is more profitable than playing KJ type hands to raised pots is beyond insane. Poker is situational. If you are a true playing pro, you already know how/when to do both and balance them out.

Almost everything you wrote is wrong. Sure, you will win some money from terrible players. But you're definitely not winning any from me. I love playing against people like you.

Your game is entirely based upon the strength of your own cards, which you make obvious by being a huge nit. I'll know exactly what you have, you won't have any idea what I have, and I'll have position.

Basically you lump all loose players into one category: bad. This is exactly what I want.

From reading your well, I get the feeling that you're not excluded from above list.

+1 amazing analysis, lag's are not bad players. Plenty of bad lags though but they dont play a fundamentally sound game. So it doesn't really count or hold any merit bashing op"s great thread.

to be fair OP's strat is pretty much how people have been crushing micro online NL for like the fast 5 years or more, its nothing crazy though it seems to gotten resistance from some here.

I mean even if you raised 100% of your hands from the btn and like 80% for the CO and just played normal TAG from the rest of the positions you are still playing tighter than like 90% of low stakes live players this isn't as crazy as it seems

The problem is this situation will only come up once every few thousand hands. It's pretty hard to get AA-QQ. Even harder to be OOP with them against a maniac who can't hand read and get an opportunity to limp-reraise.

Another problem with this is if there's anyone at your table that can hand read, your hands will be face-up to them.

You are overall advocating a loose-passive strategy. Limp everything you can, hit something big, then bet a lot. This strategy will probably be +EV at these games, I don't challenge that.

I also don't dispute that if someone who can't had read, can't read board textures and can't size their bets properly tries to employ OP's (and my) strategy, they will probably go broke fast.

But that's not the point of this thread. The point isn't how to win. The point is how to win the most possible. Winning the most possible takes a lot of skill and, frankly, most won't be able to pull it off. You need to be able to win the most possible from not only your best hands, but also your not-so-good hands. You need to know when your air is better than his air, and how much he is willing to commit with it -- and then bet that. You need to know when he has a little something but not enough to commit a lot with, and then bet a lot when the pot is large.

Your strategy is focused on your hand's strength. OP's strategy (and mine) is focused on the other guy's hand strength.

This was my thought when reading OP. This is pretty much the style I've played for years without a second thought. It doesn't feel LAG- it just feels "normal".

Okay, it's agreed Card's style is probably profitable, just not ever going to maximize total potential. Put Card at a 1, and OP at a 100; there are certainly times when the aggro needs to be toned down. Even as a standard style of play at LLS, I think the correct balance is probably around a 60; that's entirely a hypothetical figure because what exactly is that point thats 4 parts card's nothing but nut peddling and getting paid, and 6 parts uneashing the inner Isildur, but I guess since this thread is about the hypothetical best way to play, that's where I'd guess sits the theoretical default position for appropriate aggro-levels for these stakes with these loose-passive players.

Fwiw, Riverman IS the OP.

It is definitely not a golden rule when phrased as such, but I think OP is trying to say that position is huge in NL, and your hole cards matter less when you have position.

It is a higher variance style and it does require more knowledge and thinking than Beginner's may have been led to believe simply reading the OP. When you three bet in position and get called on the flop you should be thinking:

-How many callers did I get?
-How big are my opponents stack sizes compared to mine? Compared to the pot?
-How likely are my opponents to have connected with this flop? What will my success be in taking it down here with a cbet

And just a multitude of other things. I can tell you in last night's $1/$3 game I 3bet IP with a marginal hand three times. And all 3 times I got a very wet flop, one was monotone, one was all broadway, etc. I didn't C-Bet any of them and based on how the hands played out after, a cbet most probably wouldn't have been successful in these cases.

Them's the breaks. Oh and this:

+1

This is the way. Unrelenting aggression against weak passive players who fold everytime unless your beat. Give up at first sign of resistance.