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Old 06-10-2015, 04:27 PM   #1
jbellfeins
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How badly did I butcher this hand?

1/2 Home game with deep stacks. 2 Villains in hand are both mid-20's Asian guys that are friends with one another. They have been playing at each other in normal spots for the last 6 hours however, so I don't think there's any element of softplaying or deception in that regard.

7 Handed at this point, V1 (Tony) who is a very aggressive sometime spewy, his effective stack is $550.

OTB is V2 who has crushed the game so far, running hot and shown fairly large bluffs in a couple of spots. Seems very competent, aware of his image in the game. His effective stack is $1200.

Hero is in SB, white mid-20's and playing fairly solid in the game. Haven't had to show bluffs, most shown winners have been either solid hands or playable hands that connected well with the board. My effective stack is $950.

Fold, Fold...V1 raises to 14...V2 OTB flats...Hero Looks at AcAd in SB and makes it 48 total. BB folds... V1 calls with slight hesitation, V2 calls quickly.

Flop is Ks 6d 3s...Hero leads for $75...V1 calls. V2 raises to $220. Hero calls...V1 raises AI for $420 total ($200 more)...V2 raises AI for $980 total.

Hero vomits in mouth, after around 3 minutes folds.

How badly did I play this hand? What should I have done differently on the flop? Can I ever call off here?

*Spoilers in a little while*

Thanks Everyone.
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Old 06-10-2015, 04:41 PM   #2
Javanewt
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Re: How badly did I butcher this hand?

Gross. I think your flop bet should have been bigger, and you could have gone a little bigger pre, but that's nitpicking.

I would have re-raised V2 the first time. I can't imagine anyone has KK (except for V1's hesitation, which could mean he was "slow-playing"), so you are behind 66 and 33, which is such a cooler.

Since you just called V2's raise on the flop, then he shoved on V1, I'm inclined to gii, but I don't blame you for folding this deep.
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Old 06-10-2015, 04:48 PM   #3
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Re: How badly did I butcher this hand?

Either your stack sizes or your bet sizes are off. I don't know that it will make a big difference in the decision but if this becomes a math exercise, it may.

The fact that both the Vs are young Asians who have shown themselves to be action players makes calling a serious consideration. Would V2 jam $1K with AK or a flush draw here? What has V1 check-raised in the past?

Having said that, my instinct is to fold. I am not a fan of getting 475BB in with just one pair against two Vs. However, the math may prove otherwise. It looks like you need 29% equity to call (assuming you started with $950 and V1 started with $468, not $550). You don't have the ace of spades...it could be a call.
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Old 06-10-2015, 04:49 PM   #4
sungar78
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Re: How badly did I butcher this hand?

I think before calling the first bet we should be making a plan about what we'll do if Vil 2 shoves. You can call sometimes, but it's a huge gamble.

This might be results oriented, but on a board like that against these player types you might be able to check. Although it's a wet flop all the hands + lots of semi bluffs that you get value from my betting yourself are going to be betting the flop for you anyway. You also get extra bluffs (that don't make you puke fold)thrown in too.

There aren't going to be a ton of turns that we're crazy about, but we can get closer to show down and be a little more sure of our decisions.

AP I'm not calling this jam. I'm saying to myself two things 1) I guess I just should've had KK here and 2) maybe I squeeze bigger, or decide to quit the game at these effective stack sizes
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Old 06-10-2015, 07:08 PM   #5
BackDoorFlush
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Re: How badly did I butcher this hand?

With effective stacks reaching 500 BBs, and my opponents being sticky/aggressive/competent, I would not 3-bet any hands OOP.
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Old 06-10-2015, 07:37 PM   #6
NLBiddy
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Re: How badly did I butcher this hand?

Calling it and unhappy about it.

No doubt there's someone with a nut flush like A6ss, that means there's hardly any combos of AK (The few hands we're ahead of), but also less sets available.

We're gonna see sets a lot, but also draws from both of them a small amount of time. Maybe even tying with someone else who has AA vs a straight and flush draw. With the money that's in the pot I'm not gonna shy away.
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Old 06-11-2015, 10:19 AM   #7
dudebroIII
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Re: How badly did I butcher this hand?

Fistpump insta call w the end zone dance. Expect to see one AK/KQ/KJ, one flush draw. If one of them has 66 or 33 just berate them for calling pf and move on. Home game with two young asian dudes, without more info no way to put them on semi decent hands here. I'd bet a bit more on flop, like 90-100. Also just jam over the 220, don't call and let the other guy stay in.
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Old 06-11-2015, 10:42 AM   #8
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Re: How badly did I butcher this hand?

I need far more specific villain reads. These guys are buddies so I suspect they will get it in light vs each other but it's hard to say with out specifics.

As far as the hand itself I really think we need to think about stack depth before we auto 3 bet. We are going to be OOP with 450bb effective with a crappy SPR for AA. We can't auto stack off on good flops so I don't think we should 3 bet at all. I like flatting the 12 and playing an 18bb pot with a very late SPR and basically going into Call down/ evaluate mode.

Once you call the raise on the flop you never should be foldings. Your decision to call Or cold was on the flop. By calling 220 and folding a shove you just gave away 1/3 of your stack. When playing this deep we need to be realistic about our skill level when deep stacked and most of all our position.
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Old 06-11-2015, 10:51 AM   #9
fitzthetaxman
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Re: How badly did I butcher this hand?

Weird, I know exactly who villains are but I don't know who you are (assuming this is Steve's game).

This is a super sick spot however, I'd be hesitant to say getting 490 big blinds in with one pair is a cooler. It might be super exploitable but against these guys, especially V2 who I have only played with once but found to be quite competent, I probably just fold flop.

Are you planning on calling again when he jams turn? I think he is almost always going to jam (or effectively jam turn) which puts you to another tough decision.

Typically there are plenty of bad players in this game. You can probably find a better spot. Also, I am still super curious who this is.
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Old 06-11-2015, 12:31 PM   #10
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Re: How badly did I butcher this hand?

My thoughts on the hand were as follows:

Largely because of how V1 in this hand smooth called on the flop, I did not put him on a hand better than mine. Based on my reads at the time I believed him to have something to the effect of: A6ss, all AXss, AK. If V2 had folded I was prepared to call the first shove.

My rationale for cold calling was that it would effectively shut down all 1 pair hands and allow me to get to showdown quicker. I also thought I could rep KK very reasonably with the flat call. When V2 shoved I re-evaluated what I could be up against with 2 players involved both for fairly deep stacks. V1 I thought at this point was much more likely to have called my bet on the flop with AXss and then shoving for equity purposes. This led me to believe that V2 would never get in 400bb on the flop without either 33 or 66.

48*3 = 144
220*2 = 440
420 AI from V1 = 420
682 AI from V2 = 682

I am calling 682 to win 2,368

In retrospect I think based on math alone once I decide to call 220 I have to call the shove. Ultimately I think I should have either folded after V2 raises to 220, or 4-bet call off.

V1 had AsKd
V2 had 6s7s

They ran it 3 times, 1st runout bricked out, 2nd runout bricked out, 3rd runout produced a spade.
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Old 06-11-2015, 12:34 PM   #11
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Re: How badly did I butcher this hand?

If you don't know who I am based on my SN, you probably don't know me (although I have played in this game for 5+ years).
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Old 06-11-2015, 12:53 PM   #12
fitzthetaxman
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Re: How badly did I butcher this hand?

I figured it out.
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Old 06-11-2015, 12:59 PM   #13
Jkpoker10
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Re: How badly did I butcher this hand?

I'm always calling. I'm a terrible cash game player though. If someone is set mining pre there, go to them. You got 24 bbs in pre. Hope they are bad players and somehow against flush draw,ak or kq ,etc. hard to say though...
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Old 06-11-2015, 01:14 PM   #14
Mr_Doomed
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Re: How badly did I butcher this hand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dudebroIII View Post
Fistpump insta call w the end zone dance. Expect to see one AK/KQ/KJ, one flush draw. If one of them has 66 or 33 just berate them for calling pf and move on. Home game with two young asian dudes, without more info no way to put them on semi decent hands here. I'd bet a bit more on flop, like 90-100. Also just jam over the 220, don't call and let the other guy stay in.
Ya who calls 36 more dollars in to a pot of 72 dollars getting 2/1 with a pocket pair and effective stacks of 400+ BB to possibly stack someone. My point? You are assuming far too many things and you seem to not be aware of implied odds. Calling with 33 and 66 is standard, especially if villan snare competent and know a 3 bet from the SB is likely a big hand like KK+.

Not trying to be mean but you are leaving out lots of details in your argument to blindly stack off with AA in this spot.
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Old 06-11-2015, 01:31 PM   #15
jbellfeins
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Re: How badly did I butcher this hand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dudebroIII View Post
Fistpump insta call w the end zone dance. Expect to see one AK/KQ/KJ, one flush draw. If one of them has 66 or 33 just berate them for calling pf and move on. Home game with two young asian dudes, without more info no way to put them on semi decent hands here. I'd bet a bit more on flop, like 90-100. Also just jam over the 220, don't call and let the other guy stay in.
I don't think there is anything wrong with flatting a 3-bet IP in these spots with 33 or 66 by either villain. We are all starting at least 250bb deep with tremendous implied odds if flopping a set, either 33 or 66 is absolutely in either of their ranges.

Getting it in for a total of 475bb in this spot with 1 pair seemed like lighting money on fire to me, even knowing the dynamics of these two particular opponents and their propensity to be aggressive with marginal holdings. The situation I happened to be in was essentially the best case scenario as far as my equity to what they held. I was 50.2% to win the hand, and if V2 has 33 or 66 I am approximately 4%...calling off another 341bb didn't seem ideal for either situation.
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Old 06-11-2015, 01:32 PM   #16
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Re: How badly did I butcher this hand?

If you knew in advance that they were willing to run it more than once then you should have snapped called.


Also, I hope now you realize that you can never fold any value hand to these clowns ever again.
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Old 06-11-2015, 01:39 PM   #17
jbellfeins
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Re: How badly did I butcher this hand?

In a 3-way pot in this game they only allow you to run it once, so that wasn't a consideration for me in this spot.

I don't think a fold is bad here in this spot, I think calling the $220 is the worst decision I made in the entire hand. My options at that point were really to 4-bet/call or fold, but calling just put me in a situation where my opponents' aggression looked even more polarized towards strength.
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Old 06-11-2015, 01:39 PM   #18
MatthewNL
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Re: How badly did I butcher this hand?

I would feel pretty sick If I ended up folding the best hand in this spot...

Your flop bet could be a bit bigger, closer to 3/4 pot, as played your lucky they gave away the strengths of their hands, easy fold here, considering the action is screaming set.
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Old 06-11-2015, 01:42 PM   #19
MatthewNL
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Re: How badly did I butcher this hand?

What did they end up having?

and barring any read that they are crazy, this is a super standard easy fold, I would have most likely given consideration to folding to the $220 raise as well but by betting so small on the flop you made things hard on yourself.
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Old 06-11-2015, 01:54 PM   #20
jbellfeins
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Re: How badly did I butcher this hand?

V1 had AsKd
V2 had 6s7s
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:08 PM   #21
trucdouf
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Re: How badly did I butcher this hand?

First things first. There is only one "effective stack" size, the rest are just people's stack sizes.

For the hand I think it's ok.

Personally I would have led larger OTF as others have mentioned.

My biggest gripe is why did you not shove to the 220 raise? Once you call it, your hand is massively underrepped so I don't read too much into V2s shove.

Fwiw, I never expect to see either V show up with KK. 33 and 66 are also doubtful, but gotta pay them off if so.

I'm calling and only regretting not shoving over the flop raise and giving better odds.
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:10 PM   #22
Lapidator
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Re: How badly did I butcher this hand?

There is one effective stack size for every pair of players in the hand.
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:17 PM   #23
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Re: How badly did I butcher this hand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lapidator View Post
There is one effective stack size for every pair of players in the hand.
I'm just nitpicking the fact he wrote effective for every player.
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:30 PM   #24
jbellfeins
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Re: How badly did I butcher this hand?

My rationale behind not shoving flop is that the only hands that are calling my bet, 4-bet for 415bb line are:

A6ss
66
33
KK
36
K6
K3

I am never getting called by a hand that I am a substantial favorite against, so I'm turning my hand into a situation where I either win a $520 pot (they both fold) or put my 415bb or so against a hand that is crushing me.

Now I don't think they ever have KK, and very unlikely to have 63 suited, K6 suited or K3 suited...but those hands can't be entirely discounted from their ranges (especially V2 OTB getting a good price to call preflop).
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Old 06-11-2015, 02:41 PM   #25
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Re: How badly did I butcher this hand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbellfeins View Post
My rationale behind not shoving flop is that the only hands that are calling my bet, 4-bet for 415bb line are:

A6ss
66
33
KK
36
K6
K3

I am never getting called by a hand that I am a substantial favorite against, so I'm turning my hand into a situation where I either win a $520 pot (they both fold) or put my 415bb or so against a hand that is crushing me.

Now I don't think they ever have KK, and very unlikely to have 63 suited, K6 suited or K3 suited...but those hands can't be entirely discounted from their ranges (especially V2 OTB getting a good price to call preflop).
Obviously, since we now see Vs' hands we know 100% that this is not true.

You are hurting your profits by assuming V will fold.
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