Sort of a weird river spot at the Caesar's 2-5 last night and I'd love to get opinions. Feedback on full line as played is fine but I'm mostly looking for critique on river because I feel I missed value and needed to make a bet; Also curious if we bet what sizing to use and if we need to bet-call or can bet-fold. Thx!

V1: 30-some recreational player, one of the weaker spots at the table. This V opens frequently to small amounts $10-15 with a wide range of pretty much all pps, A9+, JQs+. He has seen me three-bet pre with hands as weak as 57s, J9s, 9T so should suspect I am wide. He is 2 seats to my right w/stack around $750.

V2: plays only a small part in this hand, 40-some wealthy rec gambly sees most hands to flop for most amounts and can get sticky but only with moderate hand value postflop. Has $900ish behind and is on my direct left.

My stack before hand is around $1150

Hand:One mp limp and V1 makes it $15 in the Hi-Jack, I make it $40 on the button with Kh8h, V2 calls from the SB and all others fold ($130 to the flop). Flop 6c7h8d checked to me, I would be cbetting almost 100% range on this flop so make it $75 and expect to just take it here much of the time, SB tank folds and V1 seems to be considering a raise but calls. At this point I think he is more weighted to overpairs and possibly all sets and probably only A9 and 99 as far as 9x hands, because of his raise consideration I think sets and overpairs are by far the most likely hands .

Turn is the Tc he checks and I decide to turn my hand into a bluff betting $150 when checked to as with his perception of me I should have a ton more 9x than him and I think I can get him off overpairs mayyybe even hero fold a set because he is the type to show a big fold like that for 'props' and/or size up to barrel river. When he calls pretty quickly I think overpairs maybe less likely and he can be xcalling sets and 9x, as wide as he likes to open 2 pair hands on this board are not part of it for him.

I'm planning on blasting big on many rivers since PSB will put him all in but when the 8c comes in all of a sudden we have strong showdown value...he checks to me and has a little less than $500 behind. At this point I even consider continuing my hand as a bluff and jamming since it is going to be very hard for him to call rest of stack with 9x now that board pairs and a backdoor flush comes in. I really think a bet of $200 is ideal though I'm debating if bet folding has any merit at all. Because of his remaining stack size and X-raise implications I ultimately decide to check behind. thoughts???

I don’t quite understand pre given your history. I’d bet small on river.

Yeah, I don’t love pre so much, but it seems like you believe you have a sizeable skill advantage here, plus position. I personally don’t really love attacking these types of V’s with mediocre hands, but I also definitely do it the odd time in position.
That said your 3! is strangely small and I don’t get that either. I would be around $50-60 there.
I think I would also have sized up closer to 200 on the turn, so V would be around 450 or so by the turn.
Hard to comment much on the river from here. This is very read dependent.
I could see betting $250 or so and folding to a jam, because I think a bluff from this V would be nearly impossible at that point. But you could easily value own yourself against a 9. Probably worth it in my books though given all the OP combos he can have here that will sigh call you down with.
Weird spot you got yourself in there.

I don’t quite understand pre given your history. I’d bet small on river.

$60 been my standard over a standard $20 open but scaling for his $15 was $45ish so went $40, if we were both deeper I think would have been more but thought I'd have more room to maneuver postflop with this sizing pre.

Wanted to get this player postflop hu since I felt he was one of if not weakest spot post, the SB entering was unplanned which is why I can see how $50-60 ^ could still be more ideal.

Its a weakish river check. Villain seems likely to pay you off with many worse hands, and probably does not have mamy 9x in range.

Grunch,

Pre- is fine (size up abit IMO like 50), flop I wouldnt be c-betting 100% on this board..., with your hand I could go either way between checking and 1/3 pot bet. on the flop...

turn I check back. River I go for small value like 1/4 to 1/3 pot size

How to play a river like this is beyond my skill level. I could tell you what I’d do in my 1/2 games but I’m not confident it’s right.

What I really want to ask about is the 100% Cbet on this flop. Especially 3+ ways this strikes me as the kind of flop where my opponents have a pretty big range advantage and I would want to have a checking range. Am I way off?

Check back turn seems super exploitable bc lets competent (albeit not this one) Vs blast entire range on rivers no?


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I should have been more specific to the dynamics, at THIS table/session I was betting 100% on this flop bc my threebet range that was frequently seen def had advantage on this mid-connected board. Not 100% on all tables/situations.


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Thx for replies I think slight ^ pre sounds ideal like take the $45 and add $5 for the mp limper maybe $5 for the sticky SB so $50-55.

Would like to here more about proposed turn checkback, my thinking is I would much rather bet-fold turn (if he XR) and leverage for a believable river jam on lots of rivers than check and fold to river leads.

As it turned out he had JJ and safe to say he’d call off $200 otr, however this and mayyyybe JT they called flop gutter two overs and hit 10 probably the bottom of his range here.


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You played every street wrong postflop, but the flop is particularly awful. You’re cbetting this board 100% 3 way - are you out of your mind?

Don’t 3bet light if you play like this post.

This.

Even preflop is almost always wrong even if you’re competent and pre sizing is bad (not terrible in theory but in practice with our specific hand/dynamics is horrible)

Could you elaborate/suggest lines post-flop? Also given dynamics (my wide middling range at this table exposed) why should I be checking behind flop? I just feel like if I'm opening this wide it lends itself to higher subsequent cbet frequency especially on this board as I can legitimately have nutted/ish hands and they rarely will. I'm very open to any reasoning that contradicts this though if you can expand on this.

this hand is obscene spew, especially against one of the "weakest spots" at the table.

trying to get that player type to fold a 1 card straight is stupid, especially on the argument that your perceived range should have more 9s than his, since by definition this should never be a consideration in that player's mind.

cbetting this flop 100% when 3betting is terrible strategy. the SB has a massive range advantage on you here, with mid PPs and SCs being a huge part of what this type of player will call, and also you actually have showdown value against all those Ahi/broadway hands that you were behind pre now. 98, 97, and 55 are really the only hands that you're beating that make sense for an opponent to continue, so there's literally no value in betting your pair.

3 barreling actually best represents air praying for a fold, since that's the majority of your range on this runout, and clearly you have a reputation for being light. TT or 88 are the only hands that make any sense to play this way, and it's questionable whether you would 3b them pre. maybe your opponents are simple-minded enough to think, hmm I saw him 3bet hands with numbers in them before, so he must have a straight/boat, but that sounds more like a self-justification praying for a fold than an actionable read.

as played I guess I could get behind a river bet since vill can fold better (maybe) and hero with worse, but your line makes 0 sense overall and makes me want to re-evaluate your read on villain and your self-perception.

^just wanna say that paradroid input has become among my fav input by semi-regular posters, so thanks for that.

aww how sweet

wish I had more time make tl;dr posts since I can't ever seem to respond without writing 17 paragraphs

I dont hate the cbet but if your are putting villain on a calling range of mostly overpairs to the flop. You kinda have to shut it down on the turn. Even if V didnt turn a straight or set its not like hes calling an overpair on the flop and then folding it on the turn. Once villain calls flop the Tc really shouldnt scare him. On the river i would bet fold like 1/4 pot

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Thx for details, tbh in my mind I was not betting flop for value at all as I agree that we’re behind most calls other than maybe sticky 2 overs with bd fds esp with gutter like JT but was betting with what I considered vulnerable hand to check behind when ahead and with intentions of turning into bluff when called. With that line of thinking I thought the T was great card to continue after called as when flop is called I am relatively certain I’m beat and 4 to str boards often intimidate weaker players. This isn’t a defense of any misplay just my thought process during the hand.

*I generally only post hands that I feel pretty strongly I misplayed but had thought river check was the worst element of this one while the consensus seems to be flop bet (this surprises me) and turn bet (this I understand more). If we check behind flop and/or turn I assume we need to fold to any lead from V1 or V2 though which makes me question viability of 3betting so light at all.

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whey - you really got into sum serious fps this hand. It is completely unnecessary during this time of the year these guys came to town to give it up. Solid poker will get you the money.

Thx mang yeah I have been experimenting with some things outside my norms, some of it unnecessary especially as you noted this time of year.


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at no point in the hand/line was this an objective to me until a brief consideration on river when board paired

Definitely don’t cbet with range here 3 ways. If we are cbetting range, then we definitely don’t have more 9x than V.

As played I would probably bet river.

Trust me, I get it.
At least you ramble incoherently less often than I do.

ok fair enough
however I will say that I still think you're at a range disadvantage on the turn since I can see a really weak player PF raise/calling Q9o or A9o or something like that, and even if you're raising a wide range I still think he's going to be wider bc he's likely to play some stuff that's total junk and just call to see a flop with it, which means he should have more 9s and hands that aren't going to fold this board/runout regardless.

the brute force approach may work, and betting river starts to make sense as a merge based on how you played other streets, but when you're only legitimately repping quads and runner-runner full house, you're doing something wrong.

I don't know that a weak opponent will sniff out that your line is FOS and make a light call-down as a result, but a thinking opponent should be catching bluffs on this river imo since your line is so weird. also in my experience people are going to overfold this spot. so from that view betting an 8 on the river makes some sense.