1/2nl

Hero has black KK late position. 300bb stack. (Just won and showed red KK the last hand dealt). Makes it 12.

Button is loose aggro. Been to atm once before. 150bb stack. Calls 12.

BB is nitty. 60 year old woman. 120bb. Calls

Flop is AQK rainbow.

BB bets 45.

I shove.

Folds. Says "folded queens"

Nothing really matters? What are you asking?

Did you shove 600 over 300 and 220 on a bet of 45? In that case...

So you shoves 600ish into a pot of 75-80ish ???
What are you hoping calls you AK,AQ???
Having no reads there I could lay down down QQ pretty easy. Your bet just screams AA/KK and wanting to take it down.
Is such a bad play by you that you should just think about what you are hoping to achieve when you bet.
It would help if you gave the suites of the cards cause that matters. Was it rainbow flop/monotone or 2 to a flush????
I really dont know what you are trying to do here

I would have just flatted the flop, only bad turn cards are T/J, easy to get it in over two or three streets. People don't fold flopped sets especially when the PFR has AK/AQ so often, so he probably just had an ace. What hand are you wanting to call your shove that would not continue betting a blank turn card?

Bad jam.

My friend did a similar jam.
Had KK on AKQ flop...

Jammed flop.

Got called by AA who just smooth called his raise pre.

Telling you the same thing I told him... bad jam.

You didn't value bet anything.
Only a stronger hand was going to call you.
Only can see AJ, AQ calling...

Missed value opp.

Your $600 shove will only get called by AA (discount to 1?), QQ (3), and JT (16). Maybe throw in a couple two pair combos meaning our shove gets value from 5 hands and loses to 17.

(Did you forget about JT?)

Edit: I guess we do get to suck out on JT like a third of the time so we can say we beat 10 combos and lose to 12. So you should expect to lose about 2/22 of your bet, approximately $50 when you make this play.

Obviously are much more +EV ways to play this hand.

Such a weird bet. You're basically saying that you have a monster and don't want any action with it. It does not at all look like a bluff to me where your average 1/2 player will "look you up". It's simply too much money.

Also when you get snapped by J10 or AA you're probably going to feel really bad about it. Play it out like a normal hand. No way this is +EV as opposed to getting it in on 3 streets. If they draw out on you for the wrong price, so be it.

Thanks guys. I got excited and when I dragged the tiny pot I realized what dunderstron said. Slowdown and think!

I completely disagree if you can easliy fold QQ there then I can easily beat you.... A ton of live regs especially older nitty types and woman love making hero folds to show how smart they think they are I once ripped a river all in bet when a straight was completed, she open folded top 2(AQ) when i had 2nd pair (Q9)

point is there are so many 2 pair combinations these regs could have there including AK that I will never fold a flopped 2nd set....also that clown did not have 3 QQ

that being said OP over bet shove on floip was awful next time he should take a deep breath and think about how he can extract max value he could pot the flop check turn then rip river, id like to see 3 QQ fold then

You got it - sounds like a good plan.

I used to overshove this all the time. Vs never had donk-pot-3way/fold ranges. Now some of them do and the overshove has been losing its value.

I agree completely. Try to set it up to get stacks in by the river. I'm assuming rainbow flop? Either way there are only 16 combos that flop the nuts and 3 of Aces which we are discounting heavily due to no 3B PF. Just try to use pot geometry to get stacks in by the river.

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Pot geometry? Gaha. I love this forum. Always something new to learn. Anyone give me a quick paragraph on pot geometry?

LOL at his claiming to have had QQ.

her

Haha, maybe this term isn't used in many places? I am going to assume you have taken a geometry class/understand what geometry is.

It pretty much just means use the right sized bets to "shape" the pot how you want it. In this case we want the bet sizing we use to get stacks in by the river. Splitsuit (poker instructor for Red chip poker) uses this term. Hope this makes sense?

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Pot Geometry: Refers to the geometric series of bet sizes that leads to all the money getting in.

A couple of examples:

A. Pot is 100 on flop. You bet 50 (1/2 PSB) and get 1 caller. Pot is 200 (doubled) on turn, you bet 100, get called. Pot is 400 (doubled again) and you bet 200 on the river, get called and drag the 800 pot(doubled again).

B. Pot is 100 on the flop. This time you bet 3/4 each time. After flop, pot is 250. You bet 185 on the turn. Pot is 820. You can now bet 600 on the river and win the 2020 pot. Nice increase in the size of the pot. Many players who will call the 1/2 PSB, will also call the 3/4 PSB.


Working backwards, from effective stack sizes can let you determine the size of the preflop bet you want to make, in order to get stacks in by the river. Remember that you aren't going to need to get 300BB in here, 120 or 150 depending on which V calls is enough.


In this case... flop had 18BB, and had you called V's 22.5BB bet, and BTN folded, there is a 64BB pot, and V has less than 100BB... it's going to get in.


Pot Geometry usually comes into play with deeper stacks, or in a higher blind game, when raises are closer to 3-4BB. With 100BB, and PFR 5+BB, it's going to get in.

Thanks big blue

This was a lot better explanation than I gave. It is used more for larger stack sizes like you said.

Only thing I would add is that you can use pot geometry with smaller stack sizes as well. It may be easy getting it all in by the river with 1/2 psb but what if we can bet 1/4 on flop,turn,river keeping more hands in Villains range that we beat? Especially with a hand that we are NEVER folding. Remember this is live 1/2 and villains have a hard time tracking pot sizes but not a hard time seeing you threw in a $100 bet instead of a $50 bet for example.

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No problem. if you guys ever play me live, I'm the guy who breaks out the TI-83plus when I've got AA/KK or flop top set. Please don't use it to punish me.


The bet sizes relative to pot size will change when you have more callers (LDO) and it can also be used to get the money in on the turn when stacks are shorter or preflop action is larger.


SPR - Stack to Pot ratio
Do a search on 2+2. It's an easier way to determine how difficult it is to get stacks in by the river.
Either method will get you there. I hate awkward stack sizes. I fell they lead to missed value, and they are generally avoidable.

I've always been partial to the TI-89 Titanium.

I'm not kidding.