2/2 € NLH
effective stacks 150 €
The table has been super soft, I have been giving some action, villain has been fairly tight throughout.
Villain with about 200 € profits announces his last hand, looks down at his hand and makes it 16 € (yes the standard UTG 8BB raise).
Everyone folds to me in the big blind.
My hand: 8h5h
I surely can't deny him some action on his last hand, and decide for some brainfarty reason a call is in order. My image most likely is splashy aggressive (usually the preflop aggressor), I have not been out of line too much after the flop, apart from the CB after missing occasionally (not always).

Flop: Qs8c4h. Middle pair, I can imagine I'm behind most of my opponents range as he will very likely either have a pair, or now has hit the Q. Some hands might still have missed. I check. He fires a 16 € CB.
I'm not willing to let go just yet, and pay up. pot 66 €

Turn: 6h. I improve to a flushdraw and gutshot to go with my middle pair. As a bet to my opinion against his range (which is fairly strong but exists of mainly 1-pair hands) makes little sense, I decide to check get some extra information on his hand and check. He fires 28 € in the 66 € pot.
I decide to put him to the test and represent a made hand (2 pair, straight, set, AQ), I announce the all in which is 90 € extra to pick up 122 if my calculations are correct. Some of this reasoning comes from the fact that he was very very happy with his result, and an incorrect call would mean him going home with barely any profit (last hand, remember)
To my opinion the story makes sense, my actual hand is well hidden, and I just hope he can fold his 1-pair type hand.

Outcome: he goes well into the tank, goes back and forth between folding and calling, and eventually calls with AhQc no flushdraw. I flip over my cards to give him a good sweat before going home, out comes an 8, and I luckily scoop a pot of which I have a 35 % winning chance.
On the side I think that was a weird call as he blocks some of my heart draws with the Ace of hearts. He dîd after all bet strong preflop and continued on both flop and turn before I came over the top.

Apart from my strange decision to play 85s out of position against someone that bombs preflop from UTG, I was hoping that you would share your thoughts on my shove
- Should I lean more towards check-calling as my 8 has some showdown value and will not be called by worse. I can always donklead on the river if I hit one of what I perceive 17 outs most of the time. No need to make that pot grow even more
- Would you donk lead the turn hoping he doesn't reraise, and call/fold depending on size and physical tells. I don't really want to add betting into strong ranges into my play, but hey, who knows I miogt be wrong.
- Did my shove make sense to bluff out pocket pairs under Q (JJ TT 99), other flushdraws, 2 barrel bluffs (to avoid a K or A or who know what he might hit from showing up on the river), and still have a lot of equity against any hands calling down.
- just let go of that silly hand what I should have done 2 streets before that

So far, even though he called I'm pretty OK with the line as my opponent had a very hard time to call with the best hand. I think I might have folded against my own check-raise, as it is a very hidden strong draw able to check-raise. But very curious if you share this train of thought.

Meh. Fold or 3bet pre. Preferably fold. AP lead turn.

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Pre-flop aside, hand was wp imho.

Pre is awful.

Flop std.

Turn is meh he has AQ+ almost always here/QQ/88 and AJhh-AKhh, and I think trying to bluff your opponent off this range is just pretty suicidal. It’s a call and fold river UI imo.

Turn depends entirely on how often you can get him to fold. You improved to a fair number of outs on the turn but you still need him to fold a good portion of the time for it to be profitable.

In that regards the turn is a weird and not really good card for you. There are more ways you could improve to a pair+draw if you called on the flop with Qx or 8x then actually making a hand. Villain is not putting 85 in your range but 87 should be more likely then 86 and things like 9h8h/KhQh are also in play.

It's very much a live read situation though because of the last hand factor. Did villain open tighter then usual or did he splash around with his last hand? Is he playing tighter or looser post flop? Is he going to be suspicious that you are exploiting the fact that he said this was his last hand and get sticky?

I think it’s funny and a bit miselead to say to just ignore the preflop spew and analyze the hand starting on the flop. Lots of win rate and skill is from the preflop game plan.. in fact, u might argue that the majority of a decision made in a hand is preflop, and the rest is just playing the hand out to the conclusion.
In fact, putting in 8 Bb with 85s planning to call another 8 Bb when we flop a pair is a huge leak in my opinion. We are only about 75 Bb deep so a 16 Bb chunk is over 20% or our stack.
I have some thought on the turn play, like what is villains double barrel frequency? Most live fish only double barrel strong hands so I would prefer a call generally here planning to shove the riv if we hit.
But let’s not get too caught up in that, preflop is a disaster -.-


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Can we have this post stickied?

Exactly my thoughts as well. So many posters/OPs here just ignore pre, or they know it’s bad and say things like “let’s ignore pre and just analyze post” or “besides pre any comments?” Knowing how to play pre properly will jack your winrate up by a good amount

My thoughts? This is as fine an example of spew as I've read on this forum in a long time. If the villain missed this flop, he was going to x/f 100% of the time to preserve his win.

Good point ^ about Villain probably giving up to rack up a win.

Fold pre, its not even close.
Flop is fine.
Call turn. No point in jamming here, he is probably rarely folding a Q so we just get called by hands that are ahead. Sure, we have great equity if called, but its more +EV to call turn and keep whatever bluffs he has so he can bluff river.

I take away
- no way that this preflop call should ever be in my game - not even when mixing up. I wonder if you should never mix it up like that. I try to do this every 2-3 hours or so, just to be unpredictable, and have had great results with it (huge pots when hit, opponents scared of the non-ABC-player, ...), but I really wanted to debate the reshove on the turn.
- stuck in the situation the flop call is standard play
- turn tend to check-call more as he is not likely to give away all of his winnings on a 2-barrel-bluff, it makes the range too strong to be folded often enough. Even though I have seen 3 different answers on the turn, making it a seemingly difficult one.

I think I can live with that ... check call the turn because his range is too strong was actually the answer I was looking for. I must admit that even though he was a tight player, I did not know well enough he would be able to fold a bit more of his strong range to the reshove. This does make it a bit of an error as I can still get a lot of the value on the river if needed.

Thanks for the answers. It helped me a lot in my thinking process.