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Old 09-27-2018, 11:14 PM   #1
Hazeyez
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Hero faces turn shove with bottom set, wot do? (1/3nl - NYC underground game)

Hero - UTG+1 ($573) - 2d2s

V1 - UTG ($711)

V2 - BB (~$650)
-

V1 calls $3
Hero calls $3
V2 raises to $15
V1 calls $15
Hero calls $15
-

Flop: Kc4s2c

V2 checks
V1 bets $35
Hero calls $35
V2 folds

Turn: 10s

V1 bets $100
Hero raises to $225
V1 shoves all in

Hero?
-

This is a hand hero faced after about 2 hours of gameplay tonight with a $400 buy in, built stack up to ~$675 at one point and chipped away at it until this hand hero started with $573.

Hero played tight passive as usual, while V1 was semi-loose aggressive, yet getting decent hands more than half the time. V2 was extremely tight passive, but that is irrelevant here.
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Old 09-27-2018, 11:28 PM   #2
DrChesspain
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Re: Hero faces turn shove with bottom set, wot do? (1/3nl - NYC underground game)

Snapity snap call.
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Old 09-28-2018, 12:00 AM   #3
wj94
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Re: Hero faces turn shove with bottom set, wot do? (1/3nl - NYC underground game)

Call obv. Sorry you lost
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Old 09-28-2018, 02:13 AM   #4
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Re: Hero faces turn shove with bottom set, wot do? (1/3nl - NYC underground game)

We have to consider folding pockets 66 and below UTG, especially when we are deep.

Maybe if the game is weak and the stacks are small, set mining might be ok, your mileage may vary.

Once it is 15 to go instead of 3 to go we are probably behind duh, food it. It's cheap insurance mining 77+ if only to reduce the theoretically not-that-frequent set over set with our set on the bottom.

GG told me so.
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Old 09-28-2018, 10:05 AM   #5
Tarheel234
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Re: Hero faces turn shove with bottom set, wot do? (1/3nl - NYC underground game)

with this line its probly basically 44 or K10. i could see this line taken with both. i guess you could throw in some fishy played Kk, but if thats the case AA could be possible too. bottom line is you are getting 3 to 1 on a call and there are more combos of value that you beat than you lose to. call and probably lose unless you have a super strong read Villain is a super NIT. still call lol
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Old 09-28-2018, 10:20 AM   #6
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Re: Hero faces turn shove with bottom set, wot do? (1/3nl - NYC underground game)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarheel234 View Post
with this line its probly basically 44 or K10. i could see this line taken with both. i guess you could throw in some fishy played Kk, but if thats the case AA could be possible too.
Don't forget about the various str8 and flush draws that the turn could have brought.
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Old 09-28-2018, 10:59 AM   #7
Tarheel234
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Re: Hero faces turn shove with bottom set, wot do? (1/3nl - NYC underground game)

Yes there definitely could be various straight and flush draws, but they were not included in my post because even if you don't count the semi bluffs and you just count the value hands we still have more than enough odds to have to call here, but good point
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Old 09-28-2018, 12:16 PM   #8
gobbledygeek
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Re: Hero faces turn shove with bottom set, wot do? (1/3nl - NYC underground game)

I usually fold preflop in most games. If you're playing deep with morons who are going to blast off stacks with lol hands against our obvious set, ok, fine. Otherwise, these stack sizes, while giving the illusion of great IO, mostly can just get us into gross RIO spots. My guess is that setmining is best with in-between stacks; stacks that are big enough to offer us ok IO (especially in limped pots) but small enough that people are willing to get them in with mediocre hands. IMO.

Next time post pot size on each street so we know what we're dealing with.

I'm fine with the flop call. It might bring V2 along drawing ~dead. It doesn't bloat the pot to play for huge stacks (which, unless V1 is a moron, we might not want to do).

I would just call the turn for the reasons I outlined on the flop, unless we think this guy is capable of hurp durping in huge stacks with lol KQ.

This is the second recent thread where I'm leaning to folding my set as played (although that wouldn't have turned out too well in the other thread, but I wouldn't have played it the same way). Especially on this board where there just shouldn't be too many worse hands that he thinks are good (like is he loose enough to have K4/K2/42 here?). And mostly JTcc just calls the raise as most people don't expect their opponent to fold after raising the turn. So we're basically hoping for KT, and most opponents are MUBSy enough to see the obvious 44/22 to just start calling down here for big stacks.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 09-28-2018, 12:47 PM   #9
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Re: Hero faces turn shove with bottom set, wot do? (1/3nl - NYC underground game)

I can't find a fold here. Sorry if you were coolered.

We're beating AA, AK, KT, and behind 44 and TT. I'm ruling out KK as that is so unlikely.
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Old 09-28-2018, 12:51 PM   #10
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Re: Hero faces turn shove with bottom set, wot do? (1/3nl - NYC underground game)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
I would just call the turn for the reasons I outlined on the flop, unless we think this guy is capable of hurp durping in huge stacks with lol KQ.
Why are we advocating calling the turn when the Ts puts a SD and 2nd FD on the board? We'll never really know which cards we need to fade OTR. We're likely (I know it's not a lock) ahead here and Villain is happy to build the pot for us, let's ship it and play for stacks.
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Old 09-28-2018, 12:56 PM   #11
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Re: Hero faces turn shove with bottom set, wot do? (1/3nl - NYC underground game)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunkamunk View Post
Why are we advocating calling the turn when the Ts puts a SD and 2nd FD on the board? We'll never really know which cards we need to fade OTR. We're likely (I know it's not a lock) ahead here and Villain is happy to build the pot for us, let's ship it and play for stacks.
For me all of these types of hands come down to how often you see these size stacks go in during your typical game. If 200bb+ stacks fly around all the time in your typical NY underground game, then it's probably fine. 200+bb stacks don't go in easily in my typical game, and when they do, it's coolerville unless against a moron; 22 doesn't cooler anything.

ETA: And it may not be completely obvious, but the dude we're up against is the limp/caller. 44 is only one combo, but the fact it is makes up a huge percentage of the combos that decide to play the whole hand this way.

GgamedependentG
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Old 09-28-2018, 12:58 PM   #12
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Re: Hero faces turn shove with bottom set, wot do? (1/3nl - NYC underground game)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
For me all of these types of hands come down to how often you see these size stacks go in during your typical game. If 200bb+ stacks fly around all the time in your typical NY underground game, then it's probably fine. 200+bb stacks don't go in easily in my typical game, and when they do, it's coolerville unless against a moron; 22 doesn't cooler anything.
Absolutely it's game and read dependent. But without reads or additional information, I am assuming it's the typical 1/2 loose passive, sticky, game where people are unable to fold 2pair on this kind of board.
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Old 09-28-2018, 01:02 PM   #13
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Re: Hero faces turn shove with bottom set, wot do? (1/3nl - NYC underground game)

I completely agree that two pair is unlikely to fold (until *possibly* facing a river bet for the rest of their stack).

However:

a) Very few reasonable two pairs here unless villain is super loose.

b) In my experience (yours may differ), two pairs (even top two, but especially smaller ones) don't jam to a turn raise this deep for this much $$$ in a 1/3 NL game. This is due to another default property of most players: they're incredibly MUBSy (often for good reason).

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 09-28-2018, 01:17 PM   #14
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Re: Hero faces turn shove with bottom set, wot do? (1/3nl - NYC underground game)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
For me all of these types of hands come down to how often you see these size stacks go in during your typical game. If 200bb+ stacks fly around all the time in your typical NY underground game, then it's probably fine.
This would be a snap call in my NY underground game, especially against a LAG.

Literally his only value hand which beats us is 44. Exactly 3 combos.

Add in the KTs combos (and K4s with certain Vs) which could easily take this line in my game + the many potential semi-bluffs and this is a mandatory call.

Folding to 3 combos is ridiculously MUBSy.
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Old 09-28-2018, 03:36 PM   #15
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Re: Hero faces turn shove with bottom set, wot do? (1/3nl - NYC underground game)

Gonna repeat my post from the other "should I fold a set?" thread:

Step 1 - don't fold sets
Step 2 - put large amounts of money in with sets
Step 3 - collect money

If you aren't going to stack off with a set on this kind of board, fold pre so you don't have to worry about it. Fist pump snap call, sometimes they have a bigger set and sometimes they get there with KT or a combo draw, big deal. .
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Old 09-28-2018, 03:55 PM   #16
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Re: Hero faces turn shove with bottom set, wot do? (1/3nl - NYC underground game)

Pre should be a fold.

Ap ott not happy but you need to call. If you lost gg, but blame the preflop play, 22 is garbage from UTG + 1
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Old 09-29-2018, 06:22 AM   #17
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Re: Hero faces turn shove with bottom set, wot do? (1/3nl - NYC underground game)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
I usually fold preflop in most games. If you're playing deep with morons who are going to blast off stacks with lol hands against our obvious set, ok, fine. Otherwise, these stack sizes, while giving the illusion of great IO, mostly can just get us into gross RIO spots. My guess is that setmining is best with in-between stacks; stacks that are big enough to offer us ok IO (especially in limped pots) but small enough that people are willing to get them in with mediocre hands. IMO.
Agree 100%.

Setmining with 22-55 works best when you're around 100-150bbs deep, but it actually becomes quite bad when you're more than 150bbs deep, since you'll often find that when massive amounts of money (200bbs+) go in against non-morons, your bottom set is often behind.

I fold preflop, but as played, we have to stack off on this turn card and hope he has KT.
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Old 10-01-2018, 12:05 PM   #18
gobbledygeek
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Re: Hero faces turn shove with bottom set, wot do? (1/3nl - NYC underground game)

Here's a 1/3 NL hand I saw play out yesterday.

Villain 1 is a total unknown, I've never seen him before. ~30 year old east indian, black tshirt, shorts and sandals (whatever you make of that). When I arrive at the table at 9:30am Sunday morning he's got about $1K in front (in a $300 maximum BI game); I assume him (and a couple of others based on some big stack sizes) have been here all night, but I'm not really sure. He's playing $5/$10 PLO cash on his iPhone (claiming BIing for $2K and stuck $800).

I play a few hours with him. He's aggro preflop, mostly raising any hand he's playing although sometimes limping along. But postflop he's very ABC. I haven't seen him do a bluff yet, and he's even quite passive, just taking cautious ABC value lines postflop after bloating the pot preflop (a lot of his preflop raises are going very multiway). His stack has more-or-less broke even in the time I've been there, alternating between a little up and a little down.

Villain 2 is a standard reg. Just sitting with earphones in on his iPhone. He has many hours experience. Like most regs, too loose preflop and postflop, but he ain't no idiot, he's been around the block. Likely an overall loser but perhaps breakevenish.

The only hand of note between them up until this point: An old guy raises UTG with like 60bbs; this is KK+ 100% of the time. The both make loose calls, 5ways to the flop of 993r. Someone donks from the blinds, the old guy flats his overpair, then Villain 1 makes it $80. Villain 2 then makes it $200 cold. Folds back to Villain 1 who semi-tanks and then folds a 9 face-up, declaring "I just don't see what I beat here. I have 98, you've got to have a better kicker or the boat, you know I'm not getting out-of-line with the old guy and his overpair, and either can you. Doesn't really matter what you do there, if you call alarm bells are going off too, I probably hero fold the turn depending on what you bet". My guess is that his read is dead on, but make of that what you will.

On to the hand.

Button straddle, a couple of EP calls. Villain 1 raises to $25 in MP. Villain 2 flats next in. Loose guy flats in LP. Villain 1 and Villain 2 are $1000 effective, loose guy is like $200. As I say, I'm not sure how everyone got their chips cuz about a third of the stacks were big when I got here, so it's possible they've been playing overnight, but big 300bb+ stack on stack play is rare-ish in my game.

3ways to a flop of AT6r. Villain 1 cbets $75 into $75. Villain 2 flats. Other guy folds.

2r turn. Villain 1 $200 into $225. Villain 2 doesn't take long to ship $900 total (actually close to invoking the maximum $700 bet rule our room has that I've seen come into play exactly 2 other times, although our dealer doesn't seem aware of that). Villain 1 instantly and calmly tosses in a $1 chip for the call.

Villain 2 tables 66 for the set of sixes.

Spoiler:
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Old 10-04-2018, 11:08 PM   #19
Hazeyez
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Re: Hero faces turn shove with bottom set, wot do? (1/3nl - NYC underground game)

V1 did have 44

Should hero not have raised turn?
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Old 10-05-2018, 01:40 AM   #20
Minatorr
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Re: Hero faces turn shove with bottom set, wot do? (1/3nl - NYC underground game)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazeyez View Post
V1 did have 44

Should hero not have raised turn?
H should have folded pre.

Ap you get stacked no matter the runout
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Old 10-05-2018, 03:22 PM   #21
Hazeyez
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Re: Hero faces turn shove with bottom set, wot do? (1/3nl - NYC underground game)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
H should have folded pre.

Ap you get stacked no matter the runout
What is "Ap"?

And why fold pre, and not see a flop for $15?

I think raising the turn was maybe unecessary
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Old 10-05-2018, 04:15 PM   #22
gobbledygeek
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Re: Hero faces turn shove with bottom set, wot do? (1/3nl - NYC underground game)

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Originally Posted by Hazeyez View Post
What is "Ap"?

And why fold pre, and not see a flop for $15?

I think raising the turn was maybe unecessary
AP = As Played

Preflop simply boils down to whether you think playing 22 UTG+1 is profitable at your table for you (both for the initial limp and for facing this guy's raise with the other guy in the pot). It will be extremely hard to prove this either way empirically and you'll mostly just have to make your best guess. I doubt it is for me most times at most of my tables against a decent amount of my opponents, so I fold preflop both times (noting that ending up in position on our only two opponents in UTG+1 is a highly unlikely result).

GgoodluckG
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Old 10-05-2018, 05:31 PM   #23
Minatorr
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Re: Hero faces turn shove with bottom set, wot do? (1/3nl - NYC underground game)

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Originally Posted by Hazeyez View Post
What is "Ap"?

And why fold pre, and not see a flop for $15?

I think raising the turn was maybe unecessary
Bc 22-44 are extremely weak hands, 55 is borderline. Im ok with a limp for 66-88 but 22-44 play extremely poorly postflop barring flopping a set, and even then you get oversetted by nearly every other PO and you go on the bad side of the cooler. Plus 22-44 has less straights than 55+, and being UTG 22-44 imo are generally clear folds unless there are 2-3 massive whales + noobs on the tables who are clear targets and are giving away free money
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Old 10-05-2018, 05:41 PM   #24
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Re: Hero faces turn shove with bottom set, wot do? (1/3nl - NYC underground game)

I call now we're here and given reads are SLag, not 'incredible nit'.

Pre I fold unless we consistently get family pots and the table is generally passive and easy to play against.
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