Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-06-2014, 11:21 AM   #1
CactusJack
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 337
Help With Range on Turn 1/3

V is new to the table and has only played a couple of hands in an hour or so. Raised pre and took down on flop and turns with bets. He is about 30 and is a tourney pro. Has good cash rate in the past 5 years with BIG scores recently. Dresses like he just stepped out of a rap video. Oversized Nike track clothes, Jordan's, gold jewelry. Has a friend at game but has played in town before due to family living here.

Game is 1/3/5 with 10+1 rake and is usually deep and loose. Hero 41 white guy. Probably look like construction worker or trucker to V. Prob look LP as table has been limpy and I have been trying to see lots of flops in the first few hours of the game.

Hero limps in utg+2 ($425). 2 callers to V($425) who raises to 25. BB calls, hero calls, call, call.

Flop ($115) KcJd4c. Checks to V who bets $90. Only hero calls.

Turn ($295) KcJd4c5h. Check to V and he shoves for $310.

What range would y'all put him on in this spot with limited reads?
CactusJack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2014, 12:05 PM   #2
The@rrival
enthusiast
 
The@rrival's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 54
Re: Help With Range on Turn 1/3

You have a better chance of asking the Oracle at Delphi. That's the problem with passive play; we haven't narrowed down his range at all. I know villains with this appearance who have no problem betting 72o here, and I know villains with this appearance who will flip KK and thank us for buying his new chain. Consider not open-limping, because you'll only hear static when you tune to the weather channel.
The@rrival is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2014, 01:08 PM   #3
Pug Walker
adept
 
Pug Walker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Pompano Beach Florida
Posts: 854
Re: Help With Range on Turn 1/3

What do we have? that effects the possible hands he can have for sure, especially if we have blockers.

His range I'd say is a set, KJ, and aces...
Pug Walker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2014, 07:11 PM   #4
DaYu
old hand
 
DaYu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Water
Posts: 1,279
Re: Help With Range on Turn 1/3

I'm folding. I'm assuming the top of our range here is KQ, given that we wouldn't limp/call with AK.

We are super crushed.

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
21,384 trials (Exhaustive)
board: K J 4 5
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
KQ29.49% 4,7223,168
AA, KK, AK, KQ, KJ, AcQc, QcTc, JJ, Ac2c, Ac3c, Ac4c, Ac5c, Ac6c, Ac7c, Ac8c, Ac9c, AcTc, AcJc70.51% 13,4943,168
DaYu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 12:15 AM   #5
BirdsallSa
adept
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 723
Re: Help With Range on Turn 1/3

I wish I knew more about the villain's bet sizing in previous hands than I do his tournament cash rate, fashion sense, and family life. I also wish I knew what cards I had.
BirdsallSa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 01:11 AM   #6
tmacTheorySSAnne
old hand
 
tmacTheorySSAnne's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,264
Re: Help With Range on Turn 1/3

Do we have american airlines???
tmacTheorySSAnne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 02:45 AM   #7
NYCJOSH
adept
 
NYCJOSH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Paying off nits
Posts: 1,003
Re: Help With Range on Turn 1/3

Quote:
Originally Posted by The@rrival View Post
You have a better chance of asking the Oracle at Delphi. That's the problem with passive play; we haven't narrowed down his range at all. I know villains with this appearance who have no problem betting 72o here, and I know villains with this appearance who will flip KK and thank us for buying his new chain. Consider not open-limping, because you'll only hear static when you tune to the weather channel.

Too funny
NYCJOSH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 07:19 AM   #8
CactusJack
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 337
Re: Help With Range on Turn 1/3

We have 5c2c.
CactusJack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 07:55 AM   #9
tmacTheorySSAnne
old hand
 
tmacTheorySSAnne's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,264
Re: Help With Range on Turn 1/3

Don't think about playing 52s here unless puffy is staking u
tmacTheorySSAnne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 07:59 AM   #10
DonkvFish
adept
 
DonkvFish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 938
Re: Help With Range on Turn 1/3

Fold pre, fold flop
DonkvFish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 08:54 AM   #11
venice10
Referee
 
venice10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nowhere special
Posts: 24,452
Re: Help With Range on Turn 1/3

This is a fairly simple question. He's playing the top 10% of hands pf. Tournament players are far less likely to shove weak hands with 60 BB left than most cash players. The very bottom of his range is a better FD. Sure, he'll occasionally have AQs, but you're going to go broke calling him on the one hand in his range you're actually are ahead of.
venice10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 11:43 AM   #12
AJD804
banned
 
AJD804's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 2,042
Re: Help With Range on Turn 1/3

Im not trying to be mean here, but the reason you look LP to this player is because you are LP if this hand is any indication of how you play. Any time the action was on you in this hand, your decision should have been to fold. 25 suited or not is just so bad to play in your position regardless of how the table has been playing. Also if you notice the villian's bet sizing, at no point are you getting close to the right odds to call. Fold pre next time and ave yourself the money
AJD804 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 12:44 PM   #13
CactusJack
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 337
Re: Help With Range on Turn 1/3

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJD804 View Post
Im not trying to be mean here, but the reason you look LP to this player is because you are LP if this hand is any indication of how you play. Any time the action was on you in this hand, your decision should have been to fold. 25 suited or not is just so bad to play in your position regardless of how the table has been playing. Also if you notice the villian's bet sizing, at no point are you getting close to the right odds to call. Fold pre next time and ave yourself the money
Agreed. It's a weird game and sometimes I get caught up in it and gamble. I really didn't want to post my hand because I know it's fold pre, fold flop.

I was more curious about this type of V. I've seen some so called great players barrel and then show me bluffs. I was just wondering how wide he would do this.

I don't even want to post how it turned out do to fear of ridicule and requests for invitations to where I play.
CactusJack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 01:03 PM   #14
DaYu
old hand
 
DaYu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Water
Posts: 1,279
Re: Help With Range on Turn 1/3

I admire your honesty, OP.

The only way to improve is to admit your mistakes.

Try playing a session where you never open limp. Limping from UTG is pretty much never the correct play with any hand.
DaYu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 01:37 PM   #15
CactusJack
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 337
Re: Help With Range on Turn 1/3

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaYu View Post
I admire your honesty, OP.

The only way to improve is to admit your mistakes.

Try playing a session where you never open limp. Limping from UTG is pretty much never the correct play with any hand.
I have done that with good results. Usually my prob is that I play TAG and it works well but I get too tricky with nutty hands and miss value or make a big mistake when they catch up.

I am also struggling as I am now a reg in 2 games with a relatively small player pool. There is lots of talking at the table and depending on who is there I can be absolutely berated for playing right. They are underground games and get really wild. I am prob not rolled for the games but they play deep and I am usually one of the better players (or at least am capable of playing well) at the table.

I am not making excuses for playing 52 I know it's bad. It's prob a sign of poor discipline to let the chatter affect my play. I guess I act like my customers some, likely too much.

Last night was especially bad. I played so many hands I cant remember most of them. Usually it's less than 6 or 7 significant hands in one session.

I will play right this week. It's never too late to play better.
CactusJack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 02:06 PM   #16
The@rrival
enthusiast
 
The@rrival's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 54
Re: Help With Range on Turn 1/3

Quote:
Originally Posted by CactusJack View Post
Agreed. It's a weird game and sometimes I get caught up in it and gamble. I really didn't want to post my hand because I know it's fold pre, fold flop.
Respect. If I claimed exemption, I'd need a tin foil hat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CactusJack View Post
I was more curious about this type of V. I've seen some so called great players barrel and then show me bluffs. I was just wondering how wide he would do this.
You'll see a lot of great players barrel and show you bluffs; they're great because they pick their villains well and range those villains into a thimble. It's a hell of a lot easier to do, as I'm sure you've experienced, against LP OOP villains.

In this case, I want to point out that appearance and demeanor should only be applied to unknown villains. In this case, you know he's a winning player and not the typical balla taking a night off from the club grind.

That said, tournament players are notorious for chasing neutral and low EV edges in big pots. That's what they do for a living -- they push the boundaries of risk indifference because they'll go broke folding.

Knowing this, you can expect villain to show up with a pretty wide, but presumably balanced range preflop, which is the main reason why calling with your hand OOP is a no-no. He's going to be able to barrel, he's going to be able to check back, and he's going to be able to fold correctly a majority of the time because you're giving him information and he's perceived ATC.

His c-bet range drops out the mid-range hands which can't stand a check-raise; he'll check back what he can't bet for value and some air he might turn into a bluff OTT. His range is polarized to bluffs and strong value.

The parts of his range that shove the turn are going to be a good mix of about 80% value and 20% bluff. Here's a possible range I constructed for you to stove:

Code:
TT+,55-44,AKs,AcQc,AcJc,AcTc,Ac9c,Ac8c,Ac7c,Ac6c,Ac5c,A4s,Ac3c,Ac2c,KJs,QcJc,QcTc,Qc9c,JcTc,Jc9c,Jc8c,Tc9c,AJo+,KJo+,QJo,JTo,T9o,72o,62o,52o
Against this range, your hand is basically a flip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CactusJack View Post
I don't even want to post how it turned out do to fear of ridicule and requests for invitations to where I play.
Now I'm curious about the river. Where do you play?

(I'm joking -- that rake is nuts. Play tighter... so much tighter.)

I hope this is more helpful than my original reply, but I hope you take both posts equally as serious.

Last edited by The@rrival; 12-07-2014 at 02:19 PM.
The@rrival is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 04:49 PM   #17
CactusJack
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 337
Re: Help With Range on Turn 1/3

OK, so I decided to throw $4 to the dealer and stick the $310 in. What the hell I have $1200 in my pocket and ...... is on his way...

River Tc. Donkey, worst player ever, etc. Take a break on the back porch, go eat on the couch and come back embarrassed. Also came back quiet and super tight til he eventually left a $150 winner. After that all the regs made fun of me for getting ridiculed by the pro and playing way out of character. I went on to win $1215 on the night. I think the rest was more legit.

South Texas come on..
CactusJack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 04:58 PM   #18
CactusJack
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 337
Re: Help With Range on Turn 1/3

Oh yea he had KJo.

HeeHaw
CactusJack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 07:13 PM   #19
The@rrival
enthusiast
 
The@rrival's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 54
Re: Help With Range on Turn 1/3

Good call
The@rrival is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2014, 11:02 PM   #20
venice10
Referee
 
venice10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nowhere special
Posts: 24,452
Re: Help With Range on Turn 1/3

You get credit for admitting what you did.

Now the next step is to admit that you really don't have any clue if you've had success limping UTG. All of us have selective memory. We remember the plays where we sucked out or got sucked out on. We don't remember the plays where we got our money in bad and lost. We remember when someone left the table a big winner with bluffs. We don't remember the times he burned 4 BIs and left after an hour.

For the vast majority of players under any circumstances, limping UTG is a -EV play.
venice10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2014, 06:43 PM   #21
gobbledygeek
Poet Laureate of LLSNL
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 32,941
Re: Help With Range on Turn 1/3

52s is a super easy fold in almost every single case (I think we could even pass on open raising the Button in most cases here). Open limping it in EP seems really really bad to me. Calling a raise with it is even worse.

I'd fold the flop. Villain sized his bet huge so we're not getting good immediate odds. We almost have to stack him every single time our flush comes in to break even, plus we still have 2 others behind us to react (who could raise us off the hand).

Turn is also an easy fold as even if all our outs were clean (there is a good chance only our non-pairing flush outs are good) we don't have the necessary odds.

Villain raised large preflop, bet huge into 4 opponents on the flop, and then shoved the turn. My guess is that he has a good made hand.

Gnotsureiflevel?G
gobbledygeek is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive