Recently, I decided to experiment with a different playing style. I noticed I wasn't getting paid on many of my big hands that I played aggressively. So, I decided to see if I could learn something by playing more passively. I recognize that, as a result, some of what you see below is not ideal play. That's not the point of the thread (although any helpful comments are welcome). The point is to try to figure out what the hell V1 is thinking, so I can play better against this sort of player in the future.

No reads as the game just started. V1 has a special coin he uses as a card protector so he obviously plays with at least some regularity.

Hero is BB, V1 is UTG, V2 is MP. V1 limps, V2 limps, 2 more limps behind, I check QJ. ~25 in the pot.

Flop: KT9. Above average flop! In the past, I would have led or gone for a big c/r; this time I decide to experiment with a more passive line. So, I check, V1 checks, V2 bets 15, fold, fold, I call, V1 calls. ~60 in the pot.

Turn: 5, completing a flush draw. I check, V1 checks, V2 bets 35, I call, V1 calls. ~165 in the pot.

River: T. Not a great card. I had planned on leading a safe river, but this isn't that. I check, and now V1 bets 95. V2 folds and I call. He says good call and turns over A6.

Okay, I get calling the turn with the NFD but WTF is he thinking on the flop? That ace high is good? That if he turns an ace it will be good? That he might get lucky and hit a BDFD? Or that if he just hangs around out of position in a multi-way limped pot he can bluff a scary-looking river? Seriously, I am totally befuddled. Anyone run into this sort of play before? Anyone try this sort of play in the past?

He has BDNFD i guess, but just raise the flop bet, no need to play fancy.
You just calling is bad, so is him calling.
Any diamond, Q J isn't good for you.
Any K, T or 9 isn't that great either.

V is bad.

Bad thinking has 1m different permutations. Trying to understand bad thinking in general is not helpful. Remembering that people can play bad is the only lesson.

My guess is that he fired A high because the pot was limped. When no one raised him he saw the NFD on the turn and decided to stab at it again. Then bluff the river to represent a made hand against you taking a passive line.

This is not a moneymaking play for either of you in the long run.

what was V thinking?

that you limped and check/called 2 street so you didnt have a strong hand so he tried to bluff you off of it. it was the only good action he made.

But it's not V1 who fired the flop, it's V2! V1 just c/c flop and turn and randomly decided to fire the river. So he wasn't betting ace high, he was calling with it. And then later decided to bluff with it out of position. That's what made my head explode. That said, your point about there being tons of permutations of bad thinking is well taken.

V was thinking: "LMFAO, he didn't raise anywhere with the effective nuts."

To be perfectly honest, even though V's line looks bad, it is probably a profitable line in the games you are playing.

If you're not getting paid with your big hands its most likely because of two reasons (both):

1) The game is extraordinarily weak/passive, or weak/tight.

2) You are playing extraordinarily weak/tight.

Start looking for places to apply pressure to players who will not defend their (even medium strength) hands.

Missed this.

This makes V even worse as he called with a pair draw, picked up NFD, and then bluffed river because he was "in the hand." Floating 2 streets OOP against an aggressor and a caller to rep a made hand on the river is not the play of a genius.

One issue I have is that in my main room at home anything but the very bottom rung, 1-2 spread limit ($100 cap), is a niche game with a small, reg-heavy, predictable player pool. As such I get a lot more practice exploiting reg tendencies than I do playing against droolers.

You have a perfect opportunity to get value. Take it.

3-4 way you can usually bet, bet take it down on many boards especially if you have a tight image. Spewy yes but not atrocious

V1 Thought Process:

Pre: I want to see a flop
Flop: Only three reds chips to call and I have 100 red chips
Turn: I have flush draw
River: I can win if I bluff

V2 bet flop/turn

V1 bet river.

i was refering to V1 with what he was thinking on his river busted flush


+1. thats probably dead on.

You don't want to figure out what bad players think, just play your hand. The flop is a very obvious c/r, too many cards will kill your action or your hand.

He likes to play any Ax hands irrespective of pos
He likes to see next street if he has over card/cards and if a bet is coming from late position.
He likes to chase all kinds of draws.. even a gutshot i guess
He has decent hand reading skills

All these reads are not important as now he caught bluffing early in the session.. Basic villain in LLSNL..so use the basic play

btw.. 10 on the river is not a scare card. Infact its criminal not to bet on the river here. best of luck

We don't know the stack sizes here. i think this is a good enough bluff which succeed in most case.. T hits his range more here and leading on the river puts so much pressure on Kx capped hands. Loved his bet sizing too.

Trying out new things is fine but just being passive for the sake of being passive in situations like this is just lighting money on fire!! You say you wanna take some passive lines to get more value but it should be in certain spots (perhaps like when you flop a set oop on a dry board or something! But not when you flop the nuts on the wettest of boards with no redraw oop on a flop that could easily smash both villains range!! It's no good to just say "right I'm gonna be passive no matter what!!" Golden situations like this just don't come up often enough.

Stacks are really important...

but your flop line is a textbook example of how nits turn the best hand into the second best hand. Don't overthink the flop.

What would your flop bet look like if you were "playing aggressive"?

People tend to sway WAAAY too much in either direction ie. taking this passive check/call line or leading a strong $25 into this pot with the nuts.

V1's thought process:

Pf: I have an Ace. Call.

Flop: I will have the nut flush if a diamond comes on the turn. If a queen or a jack comes I will be drawing to a straight. I can hit an ace. Only $15 Call.

Turn: Nut flush draw! Call!

River: Missed my flush draw. I can represent a Ten and get V2 to fold his King. Need to bet big. $95!

raise the flop very very big

Just a donk recreational player. Its bizarre to see but it happens. He was not thinking his hand was good. he sees a cheap bet on the flop and wants to runner runner. Its that simple. People play poorly and want to run down hands. Its always good to note these type pf players when you see them. makes life a lot easier when in tough situations.