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Old 01-26-2016, 03:17 AM   #1
gjpure
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Help me with this maniac

2/5 NL - Casino

The game is live, but the real live one in this game is a total maniac. There are different types of maniacs, but this guy is a special breed. Mid 40's black guy who dresses like he is poor, but plays poker like money means nothing. No fear of losing, wants to play big pots, over tips, drinks, and wants to have a good time and create action.

Now some of you might be saying this sounds like a dream table, but I am not so sure. There are some maniacs I like playing against. The laggy types who raise a lot pre and like to see flops, throw in bluffs, etc. But this guy makes HUGE 3 bets every other hand it seems like. So if some one opens to 25 and 2 people call, he will make it 85 on the button with stuff like 56 suited, pairs, big aces, etc.

There was another hand where someone made it 30, I call, someone else calls and he makes is something like 220 - about half his stack and everyone folds.

The very next hand I open to 20 with AQ in late, he makes his huge raise again and I decide to take a stand and ship it back for 440 and he calls with AK and is good.

I hate this because where is the skill? Where is my edge? Waiting around for QQ+ and then bet folding AQ, AJ, 99 etc...I mean if he is going to make such a big raise I might as well limp with these hands or even fold! Which really handcuffs me. If I keep bet folding these hands I am just leaking chips.

This is basically a crazy high variance situation in my mind. Yea, if I am being blessed by the deck I will crush this guy, but poker usually isn't that easy and I am not a fan of unnecessary variance. Especially as someone who is trying to play poker as a form of income, not to just get it in and gamble. I want to know I have an edge, and not be guessing and putting in 100bb with A high.

Part of me just thinks I should avoid this type of guy altogether, but what do you guys think? Keep in mind I am trying to make a steady income ( or at least as steady as possible) and I would rather be the aggressor and not be sitting back and forced to nit it up.
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Old 01-26-2016, 03:33 AM   #2
Richard Parker
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Re: Help me with this maniac

Quote:
Originally Posted by gjpure View Post
2/5 NL - Casino

The game is live, but the real live one in this game is a total maniac. There are different types of maniacs, but this guy is a special breed. Mid 40's black guy who dresses like he is poor, but plays poker like money means nothing. No fear of losing, wants to play big pots, over tips, drinks, and wants to have a good time and create action.

Now some of you might be saying this sounds like a dream table, but I am not so sure. There are some maniacs I like playing against. The laggy types who raise a lot pre and like to see flops, throw in bluffs, etc. But this guy makes HUGE 3 bets every other hand it seems like. So if some one opens to 25 and 2 people call, he will make it 85 on the button with stuff like 56 suited, pairs, big aces, etc.

There was another hand where someone made it 30, I call, someone else calls and he makes is something like 220 - about half his stack and everyone folds.

The very next hand I open to 20 with AQ in late, he makes his huge raise again and I decide to take a stand and ship it back for 440 and he calls with AK and is good.
Sounds like a very straight forward super profitable game.

Preflop is very simple: figure out your stack-off range and go with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gjpure View Post
I hate this because where is the skill? Where is my edge? Waiting around for QQ+ and then bet folding AQ, AJ, 99 etc...I mean if he is going to make such a big raise I might as well limp with these hands or even fold! Which really handcuffs me. If I keep bet folding these hands I am just leaking chips.
Seems to me that you may have a BR problem and these guys eat guys with scared money for lunch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gjpure View Post
This is basically a crazy high variance situation in my mind. Yea, if I am being blessed by the deck I will crush this guy, but poker usually isn't that easy and I am not a fan of unnecessary variance. Especially as someone who is trying to play poker as a form of income, not to just get it in and gamble. I want to know I have an edge, and not be guessing and putting in 100bb with A high.
It's not for everyone, especially if you have problem stacking off light preflop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gjpure View Post
Part of me just thinks I should avoid this type of guy altogether, but what do you guys think? Keep in mind I am trying to make a steady income ( or at least as steady as possible) and I would rather be the aggressor and not be sitting back and forced to nit it up.
Table change and move on.

Who needs steady income when huge whales are walking in with big fat bonus checks?

Spoiler:

Last edited by Richard Parker; 01-26-2016 at 03:39 AM.
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Old 01-26-2016, 03:42 AM   #3
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Re: Help me with this maniac

Well, let's say he is actually doing this every third hand (if you think it is really higher, just adjust your percentages), therefore, he is raising a 30-35% range.

Grab yourself an equity calculator, and see how AQ is doing vs a 30-35% opening range. That should tell you how to play it. HINT: You done good!

The thing about a guy like this is, like RP said, you either need to go allin on your metagame (pick a profitable preflop range vs his opening range) and shove your range each time, every time (against him only, of course). If you waver, and start skipping spots, you will quickly turn a profitable range into an unprofitable one.

Or table change.
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Old 01-26-2016, 04:14 AM   #4
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Re: Help me with this maniac

Maniacs get dealt good hands just like everyone else. I've had this happen online, see someone open shove several times in a row, they do it again, I snap them off with something like AJss and of course they show up with AA that time. And then leave the table. Does that mean I played it wrong? Uh, no. You make good decisions and live with the consequences, that's poker.

TL;DR your shove was good in the situation described, sorry he turned up with a better hand but you're only going to win about 60% to 70% of these spots anyway.
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Old 01-26-2016, 04:46 AM   #5
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Re: Help me with this maniac

You're adjusting the wrong way. The answer is not to tighten up against this guy! Regarding the AK hand, even terrible players can have the top of their range sometimes. The way you played AQ there should be massively +EV against his range if you've described him accurately.

Don't play any hand that has to fold to a raise from this guy. You need to loosen up and widen your 4! range significantly. It's hard to tell what exactly this range should look like without being there, but I've stacked off with stuff like ATs, A8s, K8o for 100BB against some V's. I'm not saying you can play those hands for 100BB+ against this guy, but you should get an idea of how often he is 3-betting and with what hands and construct a range that does well against him. Don't forget to account for other players who can be trapping)

If you just don't have the comfort level to play with this amount of money yet then change to a more passive table. I'll freely admit that 2|5 $ amounts are bit intimidating me even though I'm rolled for it.
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Old 01-26-2016, 05:50 AM   #6
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Re: Help me with this maniac

I certainly have a higher winrate at tables that do not include a maniac, since the maniac forces me to only play vs him and none of the other fish at the table. I am much more profitable at a table where I can actually play pots with people more than once every 10 orbits because some guy is shoving every hand. The problem with a maniac at the table is everyone is going to make the same adjustment, so your stackoff range is going to run into people playing similar hands, i.e. you ship 99 on him and the SB calls with TT. Yes, whoever is patient or wakes up with QQ+ is going to beat him. Will they beat him for 200BB's or more? Or will they catch him on his way out the door for his last 40BB's. If the maniac is deep and still playing like a maniac then your incentive to just wait improves. I've sat for 4 hours waiting to stack a guy sitting 400BB's deep who kept playing as you describe. He even open shoved UTG with 23s once for $2000 in a 2/5 game (and beat my KK utg + 1). You can either sit there and hope you are that person or change tables. In hindsight I wish I would have changed tables. He didnt make anybody rich, all he did was make everyone deep by passing stacks around the table till the avg stack was 200BB's. He reloaded twice and finally left. If you look at your HEM's most profitable hands they are all straights, flushes, fullhouses, etc. Hands made from speculative preflop starting cards, the kind of cards you wont be able to play with a maniac at the table pushing you out preflop every hand.

Last edited by javi; 01-26-2016 at 05:57 AM.
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Old 01-26-2016, 06:25 AM   #7
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Re: Help me with this maniac

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I certainly have a higher winrate at tables that do not include a maniac, since the maniac forces me to only play vs him and none of the other fish at the table. I am much more profitable at a table where I can actually play pots with people more than once every 10 orbits because some guy is shoving every hand. The problem with a maniac at the table is everyone is going to make the same adjustment, so your stackoff range is going to run into people playing similar hands, i.e. you ship 99 on him and the SB calls with TT. Yes, whoever is patient or wakes up with QQ+ is going to beat him. Will they beat him for 200BB's or more? Or will they catch him on his way out the door for his last 40BB's. If the maniac is deep and still playing like a maniac then your incentive to just wait improves. I've sat for 4 hours waiting to stack a guy sitting 400BB's deep who kept playing as you describe. He even open shoved UTG with 23s once for $2000 in a 2/5 game (and beat my KK utg + 1). You can either sit there and hope you are that person or change tables. In hindsight I wish I would have changed tables. He didnt make anybody rich, all he did was make everyone deep by passing stacks around the table till the avg stack was 200BB's. He reloaded twice and finally left. If you look at your HEM's most profitable hands they are all straights, flushes, fullhouses, etc. Hands made from speculative preflop starting cards, the kind of cards you wont be able to play with a maniac at the table pushing you out preflop every hand.
Man, I don't want to be the jerk here, but are you trolling Just about everything you said is wrong.

The notion that an incredibly bad player can sit down at a table and decrease your hourly is utter nonsense. If you are not absolutely printing money at $500/h+ with the kinds of players that persistently do things like open shove 23s UTG for 400BB you're doing it wrong. This is a dream spot that only comes once in awhile for a lot of people.

Most players DO NOT adjust well when playing with a maniac. They will open up their calling range against the maniac but still waaay overfold and won't generally adjust by playing back at the good player's relentless isolations/squeezes. Obviously you have to account for players left to act in a hand and can't just consider the maniac's range and play against that, but this doesn't mean you nit it up. Even if everyone adjusts perfectly then that 5 BI/h the maniac is dumping gets split up ten ways for massive profit for everyone.

If you are trolling here then gg, you got me.

If you are not trolling, I apologize for being harsh, but I just can't see a veteran poster thinking this way. I will gladly work out scenarios and support myself with math if you want.
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Old 01-26-2016, 07:57 AM   #8
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Re: Help me with this maniac

I always get grief for this but I've played a lot online against these type of maniacs and shoved my substantially widened preflop opening range against them 100s of times. I'm up from this but overall it isn't some goldmine. You do get stacked by other regs in spots you wouldn't normally, the maniac wins 40%+ of the pots vs you. The rake takes a ton off everybody.

That's online for $10 up to $50 buy ins. I'm always rolled excessively for online (40 buy ins+) so I'm happy taking these gambles.

Live I'm frequently playing with 200bb and that's all I have for the month. Then I'm always nitting it up and waiting for whale to go busto. If I can get it in with a hand that's 65%+ on to win vs his range HU guaranteed then I'll take the gamble. If there is the chance another reg is getting in the pot with me I'm waiting for TT+ AK so I cooler the reg more often than other way round.

Nitty, sure. Sub-maximal EV, yep. Do I care? Nope.

It us still +EV and it is lower variance. Also whale has to lose his stack to somebody and if he doesn't lose it to me then someone I know how to beat may well get it. They will then be happy sitting longer and gambling with the fool's money and it makes the table ++EV for me after the maniac leaves.

Clearly if the table sucks anyway and I'm on a short roll (no roll) then I'll change tables, go home or go get some dinner. If your so desperate to get the maniac's stack to pad your bankroll that you're happy gii on 55:45 shots then you probably aren't beating the regs and normal fish for any significant win rate TBH.

Personally a guy like this sits down and I just think "there go my easy l, low variance profits for two hours".
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Old 01-26-2016, 09:06 AM   #9
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Re: Help me with this maniac

Please feel free to direct this player to any table that I'm sitting at. If this guy is squeezing that much, then you need to start back-raising him. Example: MP $20, fish call, hero AK call, maniac $200, folds to hero who shoves. Easy game.

You played the AQ hand perfectly. Sucks that you ran into the top of his range.
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Old 01-26-2016, 09:07 AM   #10
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Re: Help me with this maniac

If it's not good for your personal game to sit with a maniac, then ask for a table change. It's often very profitable to nut up and play with him, but there's always risk. If you're playing with a limited roll or you aren't playing your best game with someone like that at the table, there's no shame in moving. I would suggest, though, that you take a shot sometime to learn how to deal with it. Getting over that hump and becoming comfortable playing against someone that scares you is a valuable thing at the table, and you shouldn't be afraid to grow.
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Old 01-26-2016, 09:16 AM   #11
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Re: Help me with this maniac

I think a lot of the advice ITT is just bad or incomplete. I think browni is more on the right track. However, open-shoving hands like K8 (esp from EP) is a recipe for disaster, because now you're whaling it up like the maniac. You shouldn't really open up your range too much pre, but pick a range that's ahead of his and make smart decisions based in not only V but also the rest of the table. Is he opening 50%? Play like 20%. Isolate him whenever it's relatively safe to do so (don't isolate with a **** hand and half the table left to act). If you think you can get the money in pre with your mid to high pairs then do so. Otherwise, make a hand and call him down. Don't try to force the action when you whiff with non-existent FE.

If you want to sit around and wait for a top 5% hand and try to get all the money pre then by all means do so. The problem is that you'll end up stacking him much less often overall then players that are range and positionally aware and constantly isolating him to put themselves in the best position to stack him. If you're not willing to ride the variance train by stacking the maniac then just table change. Poker isn't any fun nor is it very profitable when you're just sitting around folding scared of an uber maniac.
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Old 01-26-2016, 10:02 AM   #12
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Re: Help me with this maniac

A) you seem under rolled for this. If that is correct, changing tables is the best advice - and there is nothing wrong with this. Less variance is not a bad thing if you can't handle it monetarily (or emotionally)

B) move to his immediate right. Not left! You want to be the last person to act after he acts. This allows you to see what everyone else is doing. So you can shove lighter if everyone folds and you don't have to worry about another V slow playing something

C) if the maniac is putting 1/4-1/2 of his stack in pre, you should be shoving or folding, you're not getting odds to do anything else. This means you need to figure out a range that works.

Using a hand calculator (Equilab is free and has one) you can punch in a range you think he plays and punch in the equity you want to have vs that range and it will spit out your range you can shove with (assuming he raises/calls with his whole range, which he might)

C-example 1) you're on his immediate right, everyone is folding to his raises, but there is a raise and a few calls, you have QJs, you call, he bombs it for 1/3 of his stack, it folds back to you, now you can shove or fold (hint, if he's as wild as you say, QJs is an insta-ship)

C-example 2) same scenario as above except now a different V calls or shoves over him, now you can fold easily
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Old 01-26-2016, 10:21 AM   #13
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Re: Help me with this maniac

If you have the patience I see no problem with sitting and waiting for the right spot to suit your/your roll's tolerance of variance. Even if you aren't playing many hands for an hour or two you can continue to observe your opponents and you keep your seat at what might have been a profitable, low variance table before maniac arrived and will revert to that after he leaves. Why give up all your reads on the table just because you aren't playing the most EV fashion possible?

Yes if there is a better table for your bankroll/skill available then by all means move to it. But dont just leave because you commit the sin of playing below maximum EV for a few hours!

I completely agree with learning to take these guys on when you are rolled for it. I also agree with the need for more finesse than just opening your stack off range vs maniac - the other players still have cards so you absolutely have to think about their adjustments to the maniac and how you can profit from them/avoid getting owned.
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Old 01-26-2016, 10:32 AM   #14
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Re: Help me with this maniac

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B) move to his immediate right. Not left! You want to be the last person to act after he acts. This allows you to see what everyone else is doing. So you can shove lighter if everyone folds and you don't have to worry about another V slow playing something
This
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Old 01-26-2016, 12:09 PM   #15
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Re: Help me with this maniac

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Originally Posted by gjpure View Post
2/5 NL - Casino

The very next hand I open to 20 with AQ in late, he makes his huge raise again and I decide to take a stand and ship it back for 440 and he calls with AK and is good.

I hate this because where is the skill? Where is my edge?
In this hand, V just happened to show up with the top of his 3-betting range, and you just happened to show up with the bottom of your 4-betting range, so don't allow this to frustrate you so much. Range vs. range you will be fine in the long run (by your description, V could have easily showed up with AQ/AJ/A10, underpairs, or SCs).

Obviously playing against a maniac like this is going to increase your variance, but if you are properly rolled it shouldn't be a worry.
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Old 01-26-2016, 01:24 PM   #16
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Re: Help me with this maniac

This thread is a train wreck. OP, most responses, all of it. There's COTM's about this exact thing. If this guy isn't massively increasing your win rate every time he sits down you're doing something wrong. Period.
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Old 01-26-2016, 02:54 PM   #17
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Re: Help me with this maniac

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Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
Sounds like a very straight forward super profitable game.

Preflop is very simple: figure out your stack-off range and go with it.



Seems to me that you may have a BR problem and these guys eat guys with scared money for lunch.



It's not for everyone, especially if you have problem stacking off light preflop.



Table change and move on.

Who needs steady income when huge whales are walking in with big fat bonus checks?

Spoiler:
lol. damn. nailed it like five times. all of this.
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Old 01-26-2016, 03:27 PM   #18
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Re: Help me with this maniac

This is going to sound like me being a dick, but if you can't figure out how to beat these type of guys/are scared of getting it in light versus them poker probably isn't for you. The AQ hand is super results oriented if that frustrates you. It is a standard 4b jam. Just don't open any hands that you will fold to 3b if he is as crazy as you say then print money
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Old 01-26-2016, 03:39 PM   #19
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Re: Help me with this maniac

I disagree, not everyone has BR to ship 100bb pre with AQ and roll with variance. If you cannot, there is no shame to table change.

Goes back to the old argument that bigger the BR, higher the profit.
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Old 01-26-2016, 04:43 PM   #20
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Re: Help me with this maniac

Guess that's fair, I always assume people are properly rolled for the game.
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Old 01-26-2016, 04:56 PM   #21
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Re: Help me with this maniac

vs described villain AQs is a fistpump shove.

Pretend this was 10$ instead of $500 would you not instajam 88+ AQs+ all day over a wide 3-better?

If you would do it for 10$ but not $500 for same BBs you are probably playing too high of stakes. The money is affecting your decisions, remember they are just chips not dollars. You are under rolled for this game if this guy at your table does anything but give you a poker-boner.

If you said no you need to polish up your strategy and learn about ranges some more.
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Old 01-26-2016, 07:14 PM   #22
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Re: Help me with this maniac

I knew advocating for a table change would be massive flame bait here. The reality is that when you're playing live and getting dealt 30 hands per hour, the odds of you being dealt a hand preflop good enough to stack off 100BB's without anyone else beating you to the punch are slim to none. You will most likely have to wait a couple of hours at least before you can get it in. In that timeframe you will however miss out on dozens of spots that you would have normally played vs other opponents chipping your way up. So your decision point comes down to if you would rather play a less variance style of poker vs 3 potential fish, or just play for a single allin pot vs 1 maniac, whom you hope will still be at 100BB's effective or more when that glorious moment finally comes. Plus you're going to have to adjust your reads on other opponents since you wont know for certain what adjustments they are making. I've had players whom I've known are tight actually limp in with 22 with the intent to call it off preflop when maniac shoved, which made me fold my A8s since I thought for sure they were setting him up. It will probably take about an hour or so for you to recognize the adjustments other players are making, which further negates the window of opportunity you have to properly stack the maniac.

I'm not saying to run away from maniacs. I'm just saying dont be surprised if you spend the entire night at a table and come out breakeven from the event. Most maniacs are just on tilt pissing away the last of their nightly bankroll, and in a live setting that is often barely 1.5 buyins if they buy in short. With a maniac you are not just playing against him, you are playing against everybody. It can get pretty frustrating when you have the proper hand to push with but someone else has you beat, putting you into a situation you would have never pushed with in the first place if you were actually playing postflop poker.
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Old 01-26-2016, 07:22 PM   #23
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Re: Help me with this maniac

^^^

Said this before but notice how javi doesn't subscribe to the 2+2 groupthink consensus on how to do things but also does turn up with logical reasons for his opinions? It's refreshing.
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Old 01-26-2016, 07:23 PM   #24
Ragequit99
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Re: Help me with this maniac

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Originally Posted by spikeraw22 View Post
This thread is a train wreck. OP, most responses, all of it. There's COTM's about this exact thing. If this guy isn't massively increasing your win rate every time he sits down you're doing something wrong. Period.
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...niacs-1514764/

I guess my posts are some of the ones of which you disapprove. Nevertheless - I stand by them.

Yes big rolls = better poker = better profits.

No poker = no profits though. So I also stand by other players on short rolls who wish to eschew the most profitable way to deal with maniacs in favour of lower variance.
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Old 01-26-2016, 07:23 PM   #25
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Re: Help me with this maniac

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Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
I disagree, not everyone has BR to ship 100bb pre with AQ and roll with variance. If you cannot, there is no shame to table change.

Goes back to the old argument that bigger the BR, higher the profit.
I would agree except that OP claims he's playing for income.



Queue the jaws theme.
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