As to the ikestoys post: So you think you have a TAG image, I'm having trouble playing the following hands in middle position: ATs,KJs-KTs,QTs+,JTs,ATo,KJo-KTo,QTo+,JTo

So let's say I flop TPWK, I cbet, and someone IP calls me. If I have a hand like QJ and I hit a J, I'm pretty afraid the IP villain could have AJ or KJ and my turn bet will just value town myself....

Also, people are able to raise with their draws and or overs, and it's and harder for me to to call them, because I also have to worry about TPTK being in their range, plus everything else , but including TPTKs in a villain range sucks.

I'm still working on my skill advantage and I want to learn to play these types of hands, so I'm not saying open-raising in MP with JQo bad, but I want to know how the rest of the community plays these types of hands.

How do you make these hand's profitable?

Your opening range from MP is largely dependent on who has position on you, who is in the blinds, etc.

Also, if you're unsure whether it's +EV for you to open JTo from MP, it's totally fine to fold hands like JTo, QTo, KTo, etc.

In general, it's very rare that folding pre-flop will be a big mistake.

A lot of the problems people have these hands is that they don't have any goals in mind when the make their bet. If you are opening with these hands, what do you want to happen? Many people make a bet of "X" size because they are supposed to, not because they want to achieve something. When opening, I want at least one of two things to happen. I want weaker hands to call and stronger hands to fold. With something like JTo, I want everyone to fold. If I can't, I only want 1 person calling because it is likely they'll miss and fold to aggression. As soon as 2 people call, the odds are that someone will have a hand on the flop that won't be pushed off easily or at all. This requires knowing what bet size will cause players to fold. Sometimes there isn't a size and you'll have to pull these hands out of your MP range.

Nothing wrong with folding KT,QT etc. from MP.

Whether or not you continue betting the turn is largely dependent on board texture and what your opponent's range looks like. In general, you need to continue betting if you opponent has a lot of draws in his range. If not, check fold and consider going for thin river value.

You're never gonna be a winning player if you're running nut scared all the time. If you're gonna get MUBSY (Monsters Under the Bed Syndrome) then it's best to fold these hands pre.

You shouldn't be raising against players behind who would have TPTK in their ranges if they call. If you're gonna challenge nitty players OTF, you'll need better hands. It's fine if they raise draws and overs as that means more value for you when they miss, and it saves you $$$$ when they telegraph their holdings and that suiter or over or straight card rolls off and you fold without worrying you've left value behind.

hey venice - I really like your poasts...not sure if I have said this before but if you ever find yourself in Vegas I would like to buy you lunch sir.

These hands play terribly in multi-way raised pots. You won't have odds to flop a monster, and your 1-pair holdings will be weak and foldable, especially with typical stacked sizes of capped buy-in games.

you want to see a flop cheaply. either you can or you cant. Limping is fine if the table is limpy enough that you think you'll see the flop. If the table is tight, and small pre-flop raises are only going 2 or 3 way, you can limp/call if stacks are 100-150BB's deep or more.

So if you're going to see the flop cheaply, then there is no value to be had c-betting and betting for value with top pair. Remember, if you see the flop cheaply, the pot will be small. So betting into a range heavy with better hands, just to scoop tiny pots will probably show a loss in the long run.

you should be checking and peeling with these hands when you flop a pair trying to improve or find signs of your opponents giving up. Fire at the small pots only when it's safe to do so.

some things gleaned from this thread:

-Try and play this hand HU or with no more than 2 callers.
But this can be said pretty much about hand where we're trying use CA(Card Advantage), we want to keep from going multiway(MW) to maximize our CA. But we all know how difficult this is live, hence the joke: $10 = 3 callers, $15 = 4 callers, $20 = 5 callers, $25 = 1 caller with Aces or Kings.

-Probably my favourite insight so far is from venice10, where he mentions we need to think about what we're intending with our open raise with KT+,QT+ and JT from mp.
This is reminiscent of what I read andrew seidman say in his book easy game, where need to think about the players we are intending to target with our pre flop raises.

Do we want the fish to to the right of us to limp/call with a weaker range who will call with a wide range and chase draws?

Do we want a bunch of tight players to fold, and if they do call, give up to aggression on a board that misses their range with the smallish bet possible?

We really need to know the players, their ranges and how they react postflop to make the most out of these non-premium broadways postflop. This is why these hands take a lot more skill to open raise with than AK, AQs and JJ+. Those are much easier to play postflop as we'll have the best kicker or an overpair.

-It's not a mistake to fold these hands.
Definitely agree with this, but I think these can be profitable on many tables in LLSNL, and it's important to learn how to play them correctly to squeak out more of an edge in the slow single table environment that is LLSNL, even if that means growing as a player and working hard to increase our skill advantage. We can all nit it up and make 2 bb/hr, playing 6% of our hands, or we can work on maximizing our win rate and get into the 10+ bb/hr mark.

-You can overlimp them.
I agree with that, and I think having an overlimping range in LLSNL is profitable, but I still think learning to open raise with these with the right table dynamics is probably a better use of my study time.

Some posts I don't understand:

"You shouldn't be raising against players behind who would have TPTK in their ranges if they call"
Everyone is going to have TPTK in their range, do you mean, their range postflop is going to pretty much be AK/AQ/AJ and QK as well as JJ+? But the fish has a wide range, and TPTK is such a smart part of it will face our wrath with a value bet OTF if we hit? I can dig it.

In simple words: by paying attention at the right elements.

You are not looking at a scenario in its entirety but rather its pieces individually.

Case in point, you're asking what to do when you flop TP, but what you did not do is providing information preflop, because you probably think it is not important.

And you are also not providing information such as how your opponents play draws and TPTK+, but then again, if you did, you probably wouldn't post this thread in the first place.

You may do so, but the drinks are on me.