You really think pre is fine? There was an open and two callers and were flatting OOP with KJ??? Calling pre is the worst bc now we hit our hand and have no clue what to do. How can call pre be ok when theres a 2 page thread on what to do on the flop lol. Fold or maybe 3 bet to iso the spewy guy. But prob fold.

One thing I want to say about V2- it matters, but it doesn't mess with our flop play that much. That is because he has a VERY wide calling range on the flop. I think we are way ahead of his range. Now if he calls again on the turn (regardless of what comes), I very seriously consider giving up the hand. The reason is on the flop he hasn't seen us act and can assume we missed the flop 2/3 of the time. On the turn, he knows we have a hand so if he calls kmowing that, it stands to reason he must also have a real hand. If we c/c the flop and then c/f the turn, we've lost the minimum, and a lot less than with a c/r line on the flop. This is using our relative position to our advantage.

I think in most cases, we are going to c/c the flop with the best hand, V1 is going to bet the turn and V2 will fold because it's a lot harder to make a move vs two players. Again, spewy player creates a somewhat protected pot for us, so its ok to play our hand face up to V2 (V1 isnt paying enough attention to realize weve anniunced our hand). If V2 calls or raises AFTER seeing our flop c/c, his range is strong enough I don't think it's generally going to be profitable to continue on. Once again, this assumes V2 is competent. I've definitely c/c against multiple bad players all three streets profitably.

And raising to see where you're at is almost always bad.

The problem with this line is that it assumes spewy V1 will bet again with 100% of his range at the turn. That seems pretty optimistic after he gets called in two spots on a fairly dry board. But if we're nearly certain V1 will do this, then I agree this line is good as a way to cheaply squeeze V2 while extracting value from V1's blind barreling.

But if it fails... i.e. the turn goes Hero Check, V1 check... then V2 gets two free cards if he wants them (as does V1) which is pretty much a disaster for our middling strength made hand.

Raising the flop is not good, leading isn't too great either

leading

we likely have the best hand with KJ. If we lead at the pot on a bone dry board with 3 villains yet to act, 1 of which was the preflop raiser and is likely to fire a c-bet with about, I dunno, 99.9% of his range, that preflop raiser folds the worst part of his range which he would have fired with. If we lead, we also open ourselves up to a RR OOP with 2 streets to go when we don't have a lock hand, which would vex the **** out of us. Probably the same price to lead or c/c, the difference is that we're keeping our range ill defined, which is likely ahead of v1 or v2, and keeping the pot a more manageable size.

reraising

there is something to be said for hand protection, but we are OOP in a multi-way pot. If we raise, we're likely to over-commit. C/C keeps our range wide in our opponent's eyes and keeps the pot small. We can still get away from the hand, and can also get an opponent to put more money into the pot with a worse hand.

I like the squeeze preflop, I hate playing this out of the blinds 4 way. It is not a good hand, in fact it is a pretty serious RIO hand.

that's o.k. in my opinion. Position players can give themselves free cards, that's just something that OOP players have to get used to if they are weighing priorities in the hand. Keeping the pot small for a small pot hand is o.k. I don't always check the turn, but you're protecting your stack by doing so.

LOL @ poke4fun, sending me lots of private messages

"you are truly stupid. you should quit poker."

and

"How on earth do you manage to be this stupid? Serious question, is it the drug? If it is, can I invite you as guest speaker to my kid's school? "

even though i didnt reply to his first message. is this kind of unprovoked abuse allowed on this site? can we report him and have him banned? im guessing he sends these messages to anyone that disagrees with him. LOL talk about a troll. and he has kids? i bet this guy is a great father

this post to dgi sums it up

grunch:


this is a good squeeze spot preflop as spewy player is calling with plenty worse and good player is hard to continue without a strong range.

I really think 3betting pre is far superior to flatting or folding.

as played leading out has some benefits as it likely keeps the bad player involved and its hard for the good player to make any moves w/o a v strong hand on this board and due to the fact that your are showing interest in a spot that you are likely not screwing around due to the presence of spew tard.

c/r flop way over reps your hand
c/f is awfull too

I think that leading is the worst option... the spewer is gonna cbet everything, and we want him to. It's going to be very hard for him to continue if we donk into him and he has air and another player behind him.

I'd agree with your line if the flop was K84 than J84. In either case we are still likely to be ahead, but on the K84 we are way-ahead/way-behind with little chance of being outdrawn, so pot-control makes a lot of sense. There are also far fewer hands that V2 could float on the K84 board.

But on the J84 board our hand is much more fragile. We can be sure that a good V2 is not calling V1 to simply fit/fold on a flop like this, at least not until he sees what Hero does.

At the turn, any Ace or Queen could easily hit V1 cbetter to make him a better pair than us. Any 7, 8, 9, 10 or Q could easily hit V2 flatter by making him a straight, trips/set, or a big redraw to well-disguised nuts. To a lesser extent, the same is true if any of the flop flushcards show.


I think people are too worried about getting reraised if we checkraise the flop. A glass-half-full player would say that's what we WANT to have happen... either because V1 did it and knocked out a dangerous 3rd player, and we're likely in decent shape with dead money in the middle, or because V2 did it and was forced to reveal the true strength of his monster hand... saving us from losing a bunch more money if we got sucked into a calldown or "improved" to a cooler loser.

+1 . i know i said i would stop commenting but had to come back to post the ridiculous messages poker4fun is sending me

chalupa you explain this very well. i especially like your comparison to a hypothetical k84 flop and how much that would change things.

you make some excellent points

lively debate we have going here hehe

This is the part that you are 100% wrong about.

If we call the flop bet, the pot grows to $270 with two streets of action left along with two players. So pot control is out the window and the next bet will lead to a pot that is bigger than all effective stacks involved.

In this scenario we have competing poker principles. In my opinion, the fault of many advocating the c/c line is that they are not weighting the principles correctly.

If the pot were $50, if our hand wasn't so vulnerable, if there weren't 17 cards that we don't want to see, if we weren't OOP, then sure, a c/c line is fine.

But that isn't the case. FFS, the pot is 1/2 our effective stack and the next bet likely makes a pot that is bigger than all effective stacks involved, so you are "dreaming" if you are thinking you can pot control.

And all that, "We don't want to fold lesser hands out" is crap as well. In your mind, your villains are so stupid that they will keep betting with complete air but then not so stupid to call a c/r with a weak J or draw. You can't have it both ways. The villains described are not folding a weak J or draw.

Similarly, on one hand you keep saying, "We are likely ahead here" but when it comes to c/r you say, "Oh, but I don't want to over commit?" FFS you can't have it both ways. Pot will be 1/2 our stack and there are 2 streets of action left with 2 villains behind.

So the question becomes, when is a pot worth going to war for or taking it down?

In my opinion, when the pot is at least 40% of my stack, when i'm likely ahead but my hand is vulnerale, then I'm all for going to war or taking it down.

Passiveness is just not winning poker. It just isn't. Heads up, sure, I'd have no problem c/c into a spewy villain, but TWO villains. Between them there are 17 cards we don't want to see, 17 cards run twice, and oh, by the way, we are going to c/c which gives our villains PERFECT odds to draw. And that is what they are doing, they are drawing to two pair, straights, over cards, and even baby sets, or they are floating just to fire big later and take it down...

IMO, its not even close. Given the size of the pot, our hand, being OOP, and the fact there are 17 freaking cards we don't want to see, and two streets of action left, and the villains' description, this is an easy super easy c/r take it down situation.

If we had a set, then I could get behind a c/c line here, but we don't. OUr hand is just way way way to vulnerable here. Again, there are 17 cards we don't want to see run twice and the next bet leads to a pot bigger than our stack....

man, I'm sorry, I wasn't personally attacking you, I was just stating my analysis of the situation. Please don't get that mad. I have read the thread, and I know people have been dicks, but I'm not trying to be a dick by stating my opinion. I'm merely expressing my analysis of the situation, and fully admitting that there are other points of view and that my opinion should be open to criticism.

as to your statements

noted, but there's also a difference between us having the best hand against 2 players after we've c/c OOP facing a position c-bet and a call, and us having the best hand check raising our opponents when we're on the verge of stacking off. We also are not working with a completely solid read; the OP knows best how they play. We're playing from a generalization about villains. They could be playing any 2 holdings here, some of which beat us.

sorry if my post comes off as dick-ish, not my intent

it's neither here nor there. I'm more irritated that people started name calling at the beginning of the thread. It's so counter productive, and shows people to be complete idiots (I guess I am a hypocrite for saying this, but whatever). Ego warriors lol.

I don't believe in a million years raising is worthless, either, I just think that there are other approaches, and I'm really lothe to stack off here. It's a marginal situation raising or c/cing to be sure.

Playing OOP sucks.

dgi you've done so well at explaining all this from the start of the thread. this post just makes it even more clear why cc is not as good as cr. between this post and chalupa hopefully this is settled hahahaha

and im glad dgi commented on mycardsareblanks post cuz reading that post really bothered me but i held my tongue lol and im not saying that in a mean way, just glad dgi addressed what i didnt like about the post. everyone gets their two cents. not trying to kissass either hahahaha dgi just had this hand right from the start

man, I'm glad you held your tongue. I'm not sure I could have handled your razor sharp rebuddle.

btw, I'm not expressing anything novel. interesting that you would single me out, my friend. Oh, and weren't you not going to post on this thread anymore, because you had "said all you needed to say on the matter?" it looks like you've come back to enlighten us with more brilliant analysis, and I for one thank you for gracing us with your presence.

? what's you're problem lol my replies arent razor sharp, maybe you just take them that way, and i apologize if you take them that way. your reply did bother me because like dgi pointed out, it was wrong for obv reasons which have been discussed in 8 pages of thread, as if the entire thread is starting over again. i dont want to sound harsh, there is just no nice way of saying you are wrong and after everything else that has been said and discussed it bugged me to read

just like you took offense to dgi's post, when he really wasnt being harsh or taking it personally at all, i think hes just tired of explaining himself over and over. but he's apologized for that already.

you should honestly take things less personally. no one is attacking you

does daniel negreanu or phil or anybody come on this site? we need venice or someone to comment on this thread.

and not just saying venice should comment on this because i think he would agree w/ dgi. i know just that hes a really insightful player from all his posts and am curious what he would say about this hand.

I didn't ask dgi to respond to my post, but he did, and I respect his opinion, especially because he actually made some attempt to analyze flaws in my logic rather than just saying things that boil down to "you know, he has a point" or "you're wrong because this person says so", which really makes me wonder why you post at all. You know, you can't suck a unique identity out of someone else's ****, you just get come all over your face, but you know that.

I appreciate you taking a hard but honest line with me about my flawed logic, TehPokerNoob. Can I pay you to coach me? XD

? lol whatever you say. ill pass on coaching you

The problem with c/r otf is fold equity. A pot can get really big oop with idiots who don't fold. They also like to raise and give us odds. Two options you don't want to be in oop. In low stakes raising this board is gambling/having a good time. If that's you, more power to you.

People's betting range is generally wider than the range they'd call a c/r with, so yes I can have it both ways.

Oncw again, likely ahead of bettin range, not c/r calling range, so yes I can have it both ways.

this is not an argument- it is an unsubstantiated statement. You could make the same statement about raising 72 UTG.

Poker is all about exploiting your opponents weakness. You wait until you have an advantage (tight) and then you push that advantage hard (aggressive). Sometimes the advantage we have is exploiting a tendency to bet too many hands (as villain is described). C/C is an effective tool for exploiting these players.

You are very certain about your position, but I really think you'd do well to reconsider. If you get it in with the villains described after a c/r, you are going to be beat more often than you are ahead. If you c/r and then fold, you are turning your hand into a bluff.