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Old 02-19-2014, 02:29 AM   #1
riguy724
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hands from the BB are annoying - 1/3

Honestly I'd love to have found a way to avoid this spot, but don't want to be an exploitable player.

edit: wanted to include that V is an old dude (like 65+)

Villain is the typical 'everyone's nemesis'... definitely a cool guy, but can be annoying as hell to play against without initiative in the hand. I wouldn't even really know how to classify his play, he raises with a pretty predefined set of hands, I want to say top 10%, a standard range, but no real regard for position. He will fire pot-size cbets regardless of the size of the pot (think 5 raise callers and a 70 dollar c-bet) on 100% of pots and will almost always double barrel anything resembling top pair. Although he tends to give up after being called if he misses the flop. Essentially he's a massive station if you get a near-nutted hand and have him betting for you.

This dude plays a lottt of poker, like 200 hrs/month a lot, so he's essentially seen it all. Villain and I have lots of history, having played in multiple 400bb+ pots at 1/3 (I think most of you can imagine why). I've seen him float occasionally with backdoor draws and over cards as well, although more to hit his hand, not to 'take it away' on a later street (although I guess this is impossible to know If I had to guess V sees me as a solid poker player, but definitely know I'm capable of bluffing and maybe taking hands too far once I've shown initiative. I'm sure if I thought about 'how he sees me' more I could draw some more conclusions, but nothing comes to mind at the moment.

As far as table dynamics go, me and V are essentially the only preflop raisers, so V can comfortably limp UTG without expecting to be raised by people in later position (very passive players).



Hero is BB with J2

V limps UTG, 5 folds, BTN limps, SB folds, I check.

Flop ($9): J29

I check (in retrospect I should maybe have led this flop?) V bets 15, BTN folds, I raise to 45.
V flats.

Turn ($99): A



If I had to range his UTG limping its pairs/Axs (possibly Kxs)/ lower BWs like KJ, JT and SCs, so basically an extremely wide range. I see the A hearts as actually a good card for me, as it rules out him calling with the NFD, and only improves what I think is a small portion of his flop calling range. While I doubt it improved his hand, its a great card for his floating range, in any case I am now looking at a pot that has ballooned 10x from $9 to $99 on the flop and I'm sitting here with a vulnerable, OOP in a bloated pot, what's my next move you think?

Also, if there any thoughts on my flop play (raise sizing etc..) lemme know!

Last edited by riguy724; 02-19-2014 at 02:30 AM. Reason: he's an old dude
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Old 02-19-2014, 02:47 AM   #2
Larry Lido
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Unless you can get it AI with a CR when you have 2 pair plus from the blinds I hate this play. That said, he over bet the pot OTF. This is usually a TPmehK type of hand. I'd B/eval about 70% of the pot OTT.
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Old 02-19-2014, 03:07 AM   #3
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Re: hands from the BB are annoying - 1/3

Lead flop. C/f turn.
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Old 02-19-2014, 03:09 AM   #4
riguy724
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Re: hands from the BB are annoying - 1/3

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Originally Posted by wj94 View Post
Lead flop. C/f turn.
you make it sound so easy
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Old 02-19-2014, 03:16 AM   #5
TucoRamirez
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Re: hands from the BB are annoying - 1/3

stacks?
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Old 02-19-2014, 03:26 AM   #6
Larry Lido
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wj94 View Post
Lead flop. C/f turn.
C/F? Do you mean B/F turn?
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Old 02-19-2014, 03:46 AM   #7
riguy724
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Re: hands from the BB are annoying - 1/3

whoops stacks are 450 effective (150bb)
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Old 02-19-2014, 03:46 AM   #8
wj94
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Re: hands from the BB are annoying - 1/3

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Originally Posted by Larry Lido View Post
C/F? Do you mean B/F turn?
No
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Old 02-19-2014, 03:59 AM   #9
sungar78
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Re: hands from the BB are annoying - 1/3

for sure b/f this card imo. Tons of value to be had from one card flush draws and probably still from strong J-x here. Do you feel like you have a good grasp of when he shuts down/bluffs when he misses draws? or any type of bluffing tells on him? In that case I love a bet turn, c/c river line on non-heart rivers.
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Old 02-19-2014, 08:05 AM   #10
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Re: hands from the BB are annoying - 1/3

Hate these spots also. The key is to be able to switch from "2 pair, gogogo!" to "ugh, c/f" and feel ok about it.
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Old 02-19-2014, 09:54 AM   #11
Ineeda2
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Re: hands from the BB are annoying - 1/3

I would have led flop. I think his range would Looks like jt+, hh. I feel like he'd 4bet flop with sets.

I would c/c this turn. Reason is: I feel like betting only gets a call if were beat. Kj, qj, jt fold. Aj calls, flushes call.

C/f river
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Old 02-19-2014, 10:01 AM   #12
trucdouf
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B/f flop and c/f turn.

Against anyone but an OMC I would lean towards b/f turn.
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Old 02-19-2014, 10:48 AM   #13
Ineeda2
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Re: hands from the BB are annoying - 1/3

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Originally Posted by trucdouf View Post
B/f flop and c/f turn.

Against anyone but an OMC I would lean towards b/f turn.
Why this? What does b/f accomplish?
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Old 02-19-2014, 11:58 AM   #14
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Re: hands from the BB are annoying - 1/3

On the flop...

The pot is $9. Hero's stack is $447.
Hero has top/bottom on a drawy board vs. UTG limper.

Your check-raise is putting in $45 to win $24 - rake. Think about the range that will play on vs. your c-r.
Lead flop, protect your stack and don't go broke in a tiny limped pot.
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Old 02-19-2014, 12:03 PM   #15
trucdouf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ineeda2 View Post
Why this? What does b/f accomplish?
I see it as a semi bluff/blocking bet. I'm not convinced by flop play that either we are best nor he is on a flush draw. Fold out better hands and possibly take it down.

Edit: Misread action.
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Old 02-19-2014, 01:04 PM   #16
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Re: hands from the BB are annoying - 1/3

First, stack sizes.

Second, seat change. This guy will undoubtedly give us the most trouble at the table, so why in the world are we sitting to his immediate right? Get across the table from him.

Gthird,stacksizesG
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Old 02-19-2014, 02:46 PM   #17
riguy724
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Re: hands from the BB are annoying - 1/3

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
First, stack sizes.

Second, seat change. This guy will undoubtedly give us the most trouble at the table, so why in the world are we sitting to his immediate right? Get across the table from him.

Gthird,stacksizesG
Hey, not sure if you're asking what stack sizes are? Or if I should be paying more attention to that in planning the hand... I'll update the OP, but its 450 effective (150bb)

I'd agree a seat change is ideal with having only one troublesome player at the table, unfortunately the 5 players to his left had been there for hours and it never became a possibility. I really should pay more attention to seat changing at tables like this, the thought never really crossed my mind at the time.
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Old 02-19-2014, 03:23 PM   #18
Shwauby
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Lead flop and DO NOT b/f turn, that's just awful.
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Old 02-19-2014, 03:26 PM   #19
wj94
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Re: hands from the BB are annoying - 1/3

For those that want to b/f turn, what's your plan when called on the turn instead of raised? B/f river when you know you're beat? c/c? If I was V and turned a flush or had AJ I wouldn't be raising unless hero bets really small anyway.
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Old 02-19-2014, 03:35 PM   #20
trucdouf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wj94 View Post
For those that want to b/f turn, what's your plan when called on the turn instead of raised? B/f river when you know you're beat? c/c? If I was V and turned a flush or had AJ I wouldn't be raising unless hero bets really small anyway.
I'll address V first. If I'm V and I just got b/c Otf, uh yes I'm going to bet the turn if checked to and raise if bet into. Valuetrain 101.

My plan for the river would be c/c. He could easily have an Ax 2P or rarely a flush. By at least betting the turn I can get better info, and in the case he doesn't have the flush and some other hand doubtful he's betting.
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Old 02-19-2014, 03:47 PM   #21
wj94
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Re: hands from the BB are annoying - 1/3

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Originally Posted by trucdouf View Post
I'll address V first. If I'm V and I just got b/c Otf, uh yes I'm going to bet the turn if checked to and raise if bet into. Valuetrain 101.

My plan for the river would be c/c. He could easily have an Ax 2P or rarely a flush. By at least betting the turn I can get better info, and in the case he doesn't have the flush and some other hand doubtful he's betting.
You think V 1.5x the pot on the flop with just Ax, then calling a raise with just Ax? Or is it more realistic that V has AJ/KJ/QJ/J9/QT/8T/22/99 and all FD combos? KJ/QJ often shut down on the turn so we arent getting more value from them anyway unless it's KhJx or QhJx. QT/8T might call another bet if they have one heart, but probably aren't chasing a straight on a flush board too often.

Since we are OOP, we get owned by V's value hands and little to no value from the hands we beat when pretty much the worst card in the deck for hero shows up on the turn. Winning small pots and losing big ones seems like a bad idea. This is what happens when we have top and bottom pair on a wet board, which has now become middle and bottom, and can't beat a single value hand that V would hold since him having just a naked Ax seems very unlikely.

I don't know what the stack sizes are, but let's say they are 100bb to start the hand. Is hero now betting $60-75 on the turn and calling off most river bets or b/f river? How many river cards aren't going to make this board even worse for hero? Any heart, 7, 9, Q, K, or A is going to counterfeit hero, put out the 4-card flush, or create a lot more hands that hero is now losing to. Don't think I'd be too keen on calling off a $100+ river bet with this crappy two pair in a limped pot.

Rule #1 - don't go broke in a limped pot without the nuts. J2 is just about the bottom of any value range on this board for playing a medium size pot. If the turn card was 5c would be different, but now we can't really beat anything and I don't want to be losing $200+ in a limped pot with a garbage hand.
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