Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-13-2017, 06:08 AM   #1
ronrabbit
old hand
 
ronrabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Sleeping with the fishes
Posts: 1,662
The hand I have been dreading......

So it's late, 4am, most of the fish have left and there are me and a few regs....one who is very good value, other 4 players are relatively solid, hero has a good read on all of them and knows how they play....

Playing 2-4, straddle is on to 32....what happens when the value reg is there....
Hero has a stack of 2400+ change, (600bb) (relevant villan to this hand covers hero, has about 3500...
Hero is on the 8 straddle, two limpers, and hero makes it 100 with two black kings....
Folds to 1St limpers who 3!s to 400.....I know this guys game really well, and have played a bunch with him, this 3! Isn't by necessity aa, but I know he doesn't spew in spots like this were it can be for silly amounts of bb....

Hero jams.... (is this terra-bad? I am oop, vs one of the beat players at the casino, I have kk, I'm surely 4!ing should I make it a 1000? Fold to a 5!)

Villan snaps, I wouldn't be posting here if you didn't already know the results.

We decide to run it 5! Times, first two boards come akxxx and hero loses all 5,

So my question really is should this spot be played differently considering we are 600bb deep....
Villan can easily have ak, QQ, JJ, when he limp re-raised, even aq, as villan to hero's right will raise most limped pots, so limp re-raise is a decent line....

If we flat the 3! Can we ever get away from a board that ran out xxx,k,a

If we 4! Can we fold to a 5! I'm honestly not sure if villan 5!s qq this deep... When I usually play with this villan we are 200-300 deep.... And this plays out as above, but hero doesn't feel sick and dusts it off as a cooler.....

This is a situation I have thought about plenty, so often the end of the night comes and me and a bunch of regs are all sitting with 500bb+ stacks, and usually the games are pretty friendly, and the pots remain relativley small, as we don't want to get in each others way, but also don't want to go home to the wife and kids.... So we pass blinds around, but eventually a cooler like this was going to happen.... Can it be avoided?
ronrabbit is offline  
Old 05-13-2017, 06:22 AM   #2
deerdeerdeer
centurion
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 186
Re: The hand I have been dreading......

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronrabbit View Post
So it's late, 4am, most of the fish have left and there are me and a few regs....one who is very good value, other 4 players are relatively solid, hero has a good read on all of them and knows how they play....

Playing 2-4, straddle is on to 32....what happens when the value reg is there....
Hero has a stack of 2400+ change, (600bb) (relevant villan to this hand covers hero, has about 3500...
Hero is on the 8 straddle, two limpers, and hero makes it 100 with two black kings....
Folds to 1St limpers who 3!s to 400.....I know this guys game really well, and have played a bunch with him, this 3! Isn't by necessity aa, but I know he doesn't spew in spots like this were it can be for silly amounts of bb....

Hero jams.... (is this terra-bad? I am oop, vs one of the beat players at the casino, I have kk, I'm surely 4!ing should I make it a 1000? Fold to a 5!)

Villan snaps, I wouldn't be posting here if you didn't already know the results.

We decide to run it 5! Times, first two boards come akxxx and hero loses all 5,

So my question really is should this spot be played differently considering we are 600bb deep....
Villan can easily have ak, QQ, JJ, when he limp re-raised, even aq, as villan to hero's right will raise most limped pots, so limp re-raise is a decent line....

If we flat the 3! Can we ever get away from a board that ran out xxx,k,a

If we 4! Can we fold to a 5! I'm honestly not sure if villan 5!s qq this deep... When I usually play with this villan we are 200-300 deep.... And this plays out as above, but hero doesn't feel sick and dusts it off as a cooler.....

This is a situation I have thought about plenty, so often the end of the night comes and me and a bunch of regs are all sitting with 500bb+ stacks, and usually the games are pretty friendly, and the pots remain relativley small, as we don't want to get in each others way, but also don't want to go home to the wife and kids.... So we pass blinds around, but eventually a cooler like this was going to happen.... Can it be avoided?
The solution to your problem is that flatting is the best option. A board that runs xxx,k,a can be avoided easily . Good players know how to fold AA on a strong 3 card poker board . Along with the board would include action/position/bank management too bluff. The solution is GTO methods that you'll have to gear up for when the flop comes nasty wet, like JJQ you should be able to shove and convince your villian you hit your range .

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Last edited by deerdeerdeer; 05-13-2017 at 06:29 AM.
deerdeerdeer is offline  
Old 05-13-2017, 06:42 AM   #3
venice10
Referee
 
venice10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nowhere special
Posts: 24,653
Re: The hand I have been dreading......

First thing is that you really aren't playing 600BB deep. You have a straddle on for 32. That means you're really playing with 75BB. Therefore, you're not going to have a lot of room to maneuver. If this had been a 1/1 game and you had $75, you most likely would have just written this off as a cooler and moved on.

Keep in mind that whoever suggested the straddle and everyone that thought it was a good idea instinctively understands that they can't play deep stack well. They won't verbalize it because it wouldn't be manly, but instead will emphasize the amount of money they are playing for.

In the end, it is the dollar amount that you lost which is bothering you. The lesson here is that you shouldn't be playing with any amount on the table where the loss of it is going to be a problem. It was 4 am. Call it a night and leave next time. If it is earlier, take a dinner break and come back with an actual 100BB stack.
venice10 is offline  
Old 05-13-2017, 06:45 AM   #4
ChrisV
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ChrisV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 40,378
Re: The hand I have been dreading......

Your raise size is ludicrously small compared to the effective stakes. You raised to like 3BB from OOP after limpers.

You're effectively playing 16/32 NL. At those stakes you have 75BB. That should answer your question about whether you can get away from KK under normal circumstances.

It's not really possible for me to factor in that the game is "playing friendly" or whatever. At the extreme end of that being true, you should be able to just flat out fold KK to a limp reraise. Where the game lies between that and "real poker" is something only you can know.
ChrisV is offline  
Old 05-13-2017, 08:04 AM   #5
ronrabbit
old hand
 
ronrabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Sleeping with the fishes
Posts: 1,662
Re: The hand I have been dreading......

Something that has come up before in these forums, just because the straddles have gone to 32, does not mean this is playing like a 16-32 game, it is ludicrous to think anyone in this game is looking at 2.5k as a short stack.... The max buy in is 800, so we have all ground up big stacks.....
I happen to know that villan in this hand is playing off an aprox 10k roll, which is slightly more than hero who plays off a replensohable 7-8k roll.... So we both have a higher than we would like %of our rolls invested.... Hero was in for 600, that day, not sure about villan but I imagine 800ish....
In terms of the straddles, hero will 2x and 4x and seea it as the price of keeping the game good, and keeps one reg interested who is very good value....
ronrabbit is offline  
Old 05-13-2017, 08:11 AM   #6
Garick
Oberbiergenießer
 
Garick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Do you even math, bruh?
Posts: 24,470
Re: The hand I have been dreading......

Grunch:

You are nowhere near 600BBs deep. You are playing 2/4/32, so you are 75BBs deep.

You are also OOP, with two limpers, everyone thinks straddle raises are often FOS, and you only raised by 2BB. Way too small. Make it $200 pre.

AP, meh. It's a cooler for less than 100BB.
Garick is offline  
Old 05-13-2017, 08:16 AM   #7
leavesofliberty
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: probably busto
Posts: 6,284
Re: The hand I have been dreading......

If you don't have the roll for it, definitely do not play KK in this spot, and rack-up and leave. Good post about whoever suggesting the straddle not wanting to play deep.
leavesofliberty is offline  
Old 05-13-2017, 09:28 AM   #8
rus5267
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 246
Re: The hand I have been dreading......

2+4+8+16+32=$62 in before the cards are dealt. Two limper make the pot $120-ish. Your raise takes it $220 with it being only $68 to call from the last straddle and the limpers. Looks like a good way to get a 4 way pot to me. If you just call the pot would be around $140-$150. Raise need to be in this area at a minimum. I would look to make it at least $180. Given the way I've seen things go at 4 am I'd likely make it $250.

We are not very deep here. If the $100 bet gets called in just one spot SPR would be a little more than 8. Calling the $400 makes the pot about $900, SPR of about 3. All the money probably goes in on any flop that doesn't contain an ace anyway. Shoving is okay if your history with villain indicates he calls with worse. (That is he will call off with QQ and AK along with AA and KK) If you 4! to $1k can you surrender a $3500 pot for $1400 and KK? How sick are you if Villain shows QQ or AKhh after your fold?

Bottom line is the straddles make the effective stacks so shallow that it is very hard to get away from KK here.
rus5267 is offline  
Old 05-13-2017, 09:33 AM   #9
JackInDaCrak
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
JackInDaCrak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,518
Re: The hand I have been dreading......

Why would you agree to run it 5 times that seems very silly.
JackInDaCrak is offline  
Old 05-13-2017, 09:43 AM   #10
CWsports
old hand
 
CWsports's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 1,644
Re: The hand I have been dreading......

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackInDaCrak View Post
Why would you agree to run it 5 times that seems very silly.
82% vs 18%......he was hoping to win 1 out of 5
CWsports is offline  
Old 05-13-2017, 09:51 AM   #11
Czech Rays
old hand
 
Czech Rays's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,642
Re: The hand I have been dreading......

Nh ul

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk
Czech Rays is offline  
Old 05-13-2017, 09:54 AM   #12
matzah_ball
veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,570
Re: The hand I have been dreading......

The shove is awful
matzah_ball is offline  
Old 05-13-2017, 10:21 AM   #13
venice10
Referee
 
venice10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nowhere special
Posts: 24,653
Re: The hand I have been dreading......

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronrabbit View Post
it is ludicrous to think anyone in this game is looking at 2.5k as a short stack
I think the point people are making is that you should be looking at it that way. And if you aren't, you shouldn't be playing in this game when it gets that big.
venice10 is offline  
Old 05-13-2017, 10:51 AM   #14
ronrabbit
old hand
 
ronrabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Sleeping with the fishes
Posts: 1,662
Re: The hand I have been dreading......

I played the hand as I would have if I was 100bb deep, and I get that in terms of these stack sizes aa vs kk plays itself... But none of our villans are thinking in these terms because we are all 1-2 or 2-4 regs, none of us play higher, because the games don't get any bigger... None of us are buying in for more than 800 at anyone time, so to suggest that a 100 raise isn't big because it's only 3.5x straddle, is forgetting the monetary value to EVERYONE at the table.... My main question is does the real value of the cash we are playing with alter the way this hand plays out?
Villan would make the limp.re-raise under usual circumstances with a range kk is comfortably ahead, certainly includes qq and AK, probably JJ and aq the way the table has been playing thus far.
When I jam, if we are 100bb deep villan calls with JJ+ 100% vs me and our dynamic, but he also knows that I am not dumping 2400 on a bluff here when I shove like I might be for 100bb.... Feel like I always have qq+ or ak when I make this move this deep,
But what else can I do? Call? Then what do I do? Stack off on any none ace flop? We surely can't fold kk pre if we make a 1000 4bet....
Do I just always go broke....

Yes ran it 5 times, villans idea, as he didn't want to get sucked out on for 2400, I respect that, and wish I had offered him an equity chop now, but whatever.....
ronrabbit is offline  
Old 05-13-2017, 10:56 AM   #15
pilliapina
grinder
 
pilliapina's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 488
Re: The hand I have been dreading......

Whatever you think you are doing, or feel, is irrelevant. You are playing NL3000 with a bankroll of 3 buy-ins, good luck with that. The right play was to stand up and leave, plain and simple.

As for the hand, raise bigger pre, way bigger, you are OOP, make it a pot sized raise. When he limp-reraises, happily put your money in the middle and don't worry. You'd need a very high confidence that your opponent is very unbalanced towards AA to fold here. It would be the equivalent of playing 80% rock because you are sure your opponent is mentally ******ed and way overplays scissors.
pilliapina is offline  
Old 05-13-2017, 11:09 AM   #16
MikeStarr
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 7,978
Re: The hand I have been dreading......

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronrabbit View Post
I played the hand as I would have if I was 100bb deep, and I get that in terms of these stack sizes aa vs kk plays itself... But none of our villans are thinking in these terms because we are all 1-2 or 2-4 regs, none of us play higher, because the games don't get any bigger... None of us are buying in for more than 800 at anyone time, so to suggest that a 100 raise isn't big because it's only 3.5x straddle, is forgetting the monetary value to EVERYONE at the table.... My main question is does the real value of the cash we are playing with alter the way this hand plays out?
Villan would make the limp.re-raise under usual circumstances with a range kk is comfortably ahead, certainly includes qq and AK, probably JJ and aq the way the table has been playing thus far.
When I jam, if we are 100bb deep villan calls with JJ+ 100% vs me and our dynamic, but he also knows that I am not dumping 2400 on a bluff here when I shove like I might be for 100bb.... Feel like I always have qq+ or ak when I make this move this deep,
But what else can I do? Call? Then what do I do? Stack off on any none ace flop? We surely can't fold kk pre if we make a 1000 4bet....
Do I just always go broke....

Yes ran it 5 times, villans idea, as he didn't want to get sucked out on for 2400, I respect that, and wish I had offered him an equity chop now, but whatever.....
I dont agree with this paragraph, but if we stipulate that is all correct, then why would you shove when hes only calling with AA? Based on the stipulation that your paragraph is true about the absolute dollar amounts for both of you, he is never ever calling that massive dollar amount shove with JJ/QQ. So you need to call or fold preflop, leaning towards call obviously.
MikeStarr is offline  
Old 05-13-2017, 11:39 AM   #17
Dubey
old hand
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,844
Re: The hand I have been dreading......

I agree with both sides here. Straddles make effective stacks really short, and difficult to maneuver in a cooler situation. However, players ranges are going to be way tighter when bets get big than they would be if this was actually a 16/32 game with 75 BB stacks.

The latter is why the shove was pretty bad IMO. I think calling is best, but like others have said, racking up was the best move.
Dubey is offline  
Old 05-13-2017, 11:57 AM   #18
ronrabbit
old hand
 
ronrabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Sleeping with the fishes
Posts: 1,662
Re: The hand I have been dreading......

Quote:
Originally Posted by pilliapina View Post
Whatever you think you are doing, or feel, is irrelevant. You are playing NL3000 with a bankroll of 3 buy-ins, good luck with that. The right play was to stand up and leave, plain and simple.

As for the hand, raise bigger pre, way bigger, you are OOP, make it a pot sized raise. When he limp-reraises, happily put your money in the middle and don't worry. You'd need a very high confidence that your opponent is very unbalanced towards AA to fold here. It would be the equivalent of playing 80% rock because you are sure your opponent is mentally ******ed and way overplays scissors.
So everytime someone decides to put on a double straddle. (or even single) I should get up and say, no sorry my bankroll isn't large enough to play this hand, ill sit this one out, but I'll play the next provided no one straddles... That ridiculous.
Hero isn't straddling to 32 here, hero put the 8 on.....
What people decide to do after that is up to them....in this hand the next two players straddled to 16 and 32....

If you are sitting at a game where everyone is putting on the 2x straddle you don't want to be that guy who is sitting there refusing to, that guy is a d*** and no one wants him in the game
ronrabbit is offline  
Old 05-13-2017, 12:13 PM   #19
Garick
Oberbiergenießer
 
Garick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Do you even math, bruh?
Posts: 24,470
Re: The hand I have been dreading......

You should get up whenever you have > 10% of your bankroll as effective stacks no matter what the blinds are. Especially if things like a maniac at the table, double/triple straddles, loose game, etc. are making those big stacks actually be in play.
Garick is offline  
Old 05-13-2017, 12:15 PM   #20
ronrabbit
old hand
 
ronrabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Sleeping with the fishes
Posts: 1,662
Re: The hand I have been dreading......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubey View Post
I agree with both sides here. Straddles make effective stacks really short, and difficult to maneuver in a cooler situation. However, players ranges are going to be way tighter when bets get big than they would be if this was actually a 16/32 game with 75 BB stacks.

The latter is why the shove was pretty bad IMO. I think calling is best, but like others have said, racking up was the best move.
I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place here though, jamming only gets called by aa, I thought standard qq and AK also at the time but figures after probably not....as I said if I'm 100bb deep this is a snap call for villan with qq, probably even JJ given our dynamic, but with stacks so large (in terms of actual money, I just don't know)
If I call I'm oop in a really big pot with low spr, and we are stacking off anyway provided no ace..... But keeps villans range wider, will deffinatley include qq, and JJ...so this hand ends up as a loss anyway, but long term would be better to keep villan wider here?
ronrabbit is offline  
Old 05-13-2017, 12:26 PM   #21
ronrabbit
old hand
 
ronrabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Sleeping with the fishes
Posts: 1,662
Re: The hand I have been dreading......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick View Post
You should get up whenever you have > 10% of your bankroll as effective stacks no matter what the blinds are. Especially if things like a maniac at the table, double/triple straddles, loose game, etc. are making those big stacks actually be in play.
So my bank-roll is a steady 7-8k, I keep it at that value so I have 10x 800s for 2-4 games....anything I make on top is just spending money, and have been that way for a good long while now, I ended up 600 down last night so my roll is currently at 6940.... I will take 50% of profits until it gets to 8k again....That's what I always do, so the money in this pot is not part of my dedicated roll, if you want to think of it that way? I'm not doing this as a job, so I dont worry about diligent br management because if I bust, the mortgage gets paid and the kids still eat, and I start again trying to spin up from 200 on the 1-2 tables....

The money lost last night would have been just money to burn up on meals out, car parts and drink if you want to think of it that way.....it was just alot of meals, drinks and parts.....

Maybe I think about this all wrong, but the money I get from poker goes on enjoying myself, I don't sit in a casino for 8hours to squirrel away some money into a br incase someone decides to double straddle, or incase a 2-5 game opens for the first time ever...
ronrabbit is offline  
Old 05-13-2017, 12:42 PM   #22
Buster65
The Situation
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Livin' on Bluff Rd.
Posts: 2,240
Re: The hand I have been dreading......

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronrabbit View Post
So my bank-roll is a steady 7-8k, I keep it at that value so I have 10x 800s for 2-4 games....anything I make on top is just spending money, and have been that way for a good long while now, I ended up 600 down last night so my roll is currently at 6940.... I will take 50% of profits until it gets to 8k again....That's what I always do, so the money in this pot is not part of my dedicated roll, if you want to think of it that way? I'm not doing this as a job, so I dont worry about diligent br management because if I bust, the mortgage gets paid and the kids still eat, and I start again trying to spin up from 200 on the 1-2 tables....

The money lost last night would have been just money to burn up on meals out, car parts and drink if you want to think of it that way.....it was just alot of meals, drinks and parts.....

Maybe I think about this all wrong, but the money I get from poker goes on enjoying myself, I don't sit in a casino for 8hours to squirrel away some money into a br incase someone decides to double straddle, or incase a 2-5 game opens for the first time ever...
Welp, sounds like you got it all figured out. No one here can help ya, obviously. Cooler is a cooler (or whatever it is you wanna hear), and move on.
Buster65 is offline  
Old 05-13-2017, 12:47 PM   #23
ronrabbit
old hand
 
ronrabbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Sleeping with the fishes
Posts: 1,662
Re: The hand I have been dreading......

^not sure what that means,and this thread seems to have got de-railed into weather I should have got up from the table becauae a villan straddled to 32.....

I feel like in hindsight becauae of the amount of money in pkay, flatting the 3! Is better pre-flop, but then do we always have to go broke on a none ace flop?
ronrabbit is offline  
Old 05-13-2017, 12:53 PM   #24
Garick
Oberbiergenießer
 
Garick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Do you even math, bruh?
Posts: 24,470
Re: The hand I have been dreading......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buster65 View Post
Welp, sounds like you got it all figured out. No one here can help ya, obviously. Cooler is a cooler (or whatever it is you wanna hear), and move on.
This. /thread.
Garick is offline  

Closed Thread
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive