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Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

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Old 06-20-2014, 02:35 PM   #1
PocketKings
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Hand 5-6 from Harrington on Cash Games Book

Online 2/4. No read on table yet. MP open limps with a stack of 310. BB has a short stack of 85. BB has 1000.

You have 540 at Button with 75.

Do you call?

Spoiler:
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Old 06-20-2014, 09:26 PM   #2
BenT07891
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Re: Hand 5-6 from Harrington on Cash Games Book

You're 4.9-1 against to hit on the turn. He won't always bet on the turn though. If we get to see the river without a turn bet, we're 2.2-1 against to hit. But he'll usually bet turn.

Ignoring implied odds, I'd like to see somewhere around 4-1 immediate odds. It's slightly less than the 4.9-1 since he will not bet turn all the time.
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Old 06-20-2014, 10:03 PM   #3
limonade
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Re: Hand 5-6 from Harrington on Cash Games Book

There were a few hands in that book that didn't convince me, and this was one of them.

Limp with 75o on the button, with no reads? It seems this type of play is really dependent on our opponents' tendencies, and with no reads, we are just asking for trouble.

Then the flop gives us an open-ender, and we are facing a bet. How do we proceed? Well, let me just consider what I know about my opponents. Oh, wait...

I totally get why Harrington finds a fold when we flop an open-ender. But if we have to fold there, then it doesn't seem like we get to continue unless we flop two-pair, trips, or a straight. And if we are going to fold just about every time postflop, why not just fold preflop?

Someone explain to me why Harrington is right and I am wrong.
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Old 06-20-2014, 10:28 PM   #4
au4all
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Re: Hand 5-6 from Harrington on Cash Games Book

You have 8 outs out of 47 cards. You're calling a bet of 16 dollars. You need to win a pot of at least 94 dollars to breakeven. Calculate it this way: 16/(8/47).

The pot will only be 52 on the turn. You need Villain to bet/call an additional 42 on the turn/river just to breakeven.

If he doesn't bet the turn it's profitable as is. This is 46.50 -> 16/(8/47 + 8/46), and the pot is already 52.

If he does bet the turn you should be getting another 42 -- since he's betting 80% of the pot.

The assumption above is the Villain is drawing dead after you hit your straight which is obviously not true. He could have a set, hit a flush, etc.
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Old 06-20-2014, 10:45 PM   #5
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Re: Hand 5-6 from Harrington on Cash Games Book

this seems pretty terrible. calling otb with 75o is super sketchy and then folding it when you flop one of the few decent boards seems worse.

math math math math blah blah blah blah
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Old 06-21-2014, 01:27 AM   #6
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Re: Hand 5-6 from Harrington on Cash Games Book

Calling on the BTN with marginal hands against unknown players is just a recipe for disaster.
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Old 06-21-2014, 10:45 AM   #7
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Re: Hand 5-6 from Harrington on Cash Games Book

Here's my thoughts on Harrington's recommended line:

Preflop: I'm folding, but don't think a call is bad. The MP limp is usually a small pair, suited ace, ect. We are rarely dominated against MP, and have position and reasonably deep stacks against 2 of 3 players. The reason I'm folding though is the BB is super shallow, and our hand isn't suited.

Flop: I agree with a fold. The flush draw hurts us because villain could have a flush draw and it hurts our implied odds if he has K-X, since if the turn completes our straight and a flush, villain is more likely to get away from K-X.

If the flop was rainbow, I'm calling.
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Old 06-23-2014, 01:12 PM   #8
gobbledygeek
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Re: Hand 5-6 from Harrington on Cash Games Book

I'm guessing it's pretty difficult to know what to do readless.

Also, one of the things I didn't like about HOC is how examples bounce around from stakes as well as on-line vs live.

If I approached this hand from purely a typical 1/3 NL live game, even readless, my default play would probably be to raise preflop (taking down the dead money preflop or with a flop cbet I'm assuming will be profitable), and as played probably to call the flop (where 6 of our outs are clean and possibly disguised, and we can also possibly rep the flush outs as we are not exactly short against donker). But readless, this might all be fairly meh play on my part and I probably shouldn't attempt any of this until those have been developed.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 06-23-2014, 06:20 PM   #9
venice10
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Re: Hand 5-6 from Harrington on Cash Games Book

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
If I approached this hand from purely a typical 1/3 NL live game, even readless, my default play would probably be to raise preflop
Who are you and what did you do with GG? I'm notifying the Mounties.

OP, HOC was written over 6 years ago. Harrington's main experience in cash was playing a very tough game in NYC. From an editorial point of view, he, Robertie and Malmuth never had a consistent audience in mind. The book careens from absolute beginner information to fairly sophisticated play. The chapter on soft game play clearly was tacked on at the end when they realized the advice was going to overwhelm beginning players.

I take Harrington's advice to call in this hand in the context that he believes you need widen your range by playing hands like 75o some of the time. Therefore, you're not always playing 75o here, but some % of the time you should. From a LLSNL perspective, balancing your play like this is generally unnecessary. Your villains won't notice.

So pf, he's advocating a somewhat sophisticated strategy. However, on the flop is going back to beginner play. MP bets out, you're not getting pot odds, let it go. Personally, I'd call here and hope it goes HU. The reason is that this is going to look like a FD. I can steal this on the turn if a spade comes since the villain will most likely fold to the obvious FD. If I hit my straight, I'm going to get paid off big. I can even potentially take this if an ace comes.
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Old 06-23-2014, 08:29 PM   #10
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Re: Hand 5-6 from Harrington on Cash Games Book

In the book UTG also limps with $240. That makes me more inclined to come along here despite villains being unknown but I probably fold more then call. With one villain limping in front, I just fold this. Against an unknown I'm not trying to steal with such a weak hand and I want more villains in when I'm trying to flop a big hand. Diversification and balance also play a small part here but not nearly as much as Harrington emphasizes it, few low stakes players are paying enough attention to other peoples ranges.
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Old 06-23-2014, 11:02 PM   #11
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Re: Hand 5-6 from Harrington on Cash Games Book

Quote:
Originally Posted by PocketKings View Post
Online 2/4. No read on table yet.
What does this mean? HUD, you always have table reads.
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Old 06-24-2014, 03:11 AM   #12
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Re: Hand 5-6 from Harrington on Cash Games Book

Pre-Flop is a style based decision - if you want a TAG image fold. If you want to get in at new table and show up a bit LAGgy...call or raise. So Harrignton says call...its fine.

I think your question is a good one...BUT...your switching the suits changes everything. Obviously with 2 spades, calling with only 2.25:1 is not a good thing to do because some of your outs are no good. You have 6 good ones so yes you'll need better to play. Fold is good.

But you took away the flush draw and gave us 2 more outs. At that point, I would definitely stay in this hand given 2.25:1. I don't think raising is bad here either - you have position; you have decent pot equity and you have decent fold equity as well, which makes for a good spot to semi-bluff.
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Old 06-24-2014, 03:35 AM   #13
javale mc g
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Re: Hand 5-6 from Harrington on Cash Games Book

wtf, online 2/4? and harrington plays it that way? or even thinks that scenario is likely to occur? i didnīt read it, but i guess if you take HOC to try to beat NL400, you might as well flush your money down the toilet.
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Old 06-24-2014, 03:51 AM   #14
BJballs
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This is dated material and should be geared towards live play not online IMO. By default I assume that 2/4 nl online is always more aggressive than live. I think I would be burning up money by overlimping the btn with a garbage hand like this. Live you can get away with crap like this. SB or BB are going to raise a fair amount of time in this scenario.
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Old 06-24-2014, 11:04 AM   #15
gobbledygeek
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Re: Hand 5-6 from Harrington on Cash Games Book

Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
Who are you and what did you do with GG? I'm notifying the Mounties.
I'm now the forum aggrotard apparently.

Again, I probably shouldn't be doing this readless, but in a typical live 1/3NL game that is leaning towards the tight side (which this one is with only 1 limper to us in LP), then I'm typically raising any hand I'm considering playing vs just 1 limper. Reads on limper and blinds can obviously change that.

GaggrotardG
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Old 06-24-2014, 02:39 PM   #16
AintNoLimit
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Re: Hand 5-6 from Harrington on Cash Games Book

I would highly disagree about preflop.
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