This guy literally sat down at the table 5 minutes ago. This is his first or second hand.

Villain - no real reads yet. Bought in for $300.

Hero - covers.

V opens for $7 UTG +1. Hero looks down at K K and 3-bets to $25. V1 calls. 2 players to the flop, $53.

Flop: 10 10 4 - I don't remember the suits.

V1 checks, hero bets $40. V1 calls.

Turn: 6

V1 checks, hero bets $75. V1 calls.

River: 9. There are no draws that V1 can reasonably have. V1 shoves for $160. Hero...???

fold. Doubt he plays JJ-QQ like this. Maybe. But Tx, 99, 66 (and AA) much more likely.

loose fish + no reads = does not compute

pretty sick spot - my default is to check on these paired boards as I don't think I can get 3 streets of value and will bet the turn and river for value.

It looks like he has you beat here. You showed ton of strength and now he is shoving river. As a default this is a fold but since he is an unknown and could be spazzing I wouldn't fault a call.

Your 3bet is fine - you can also go bigger if you want.

Vs massive donkeys that call any 2 i've 3bet pre to $60 and got calls after they raised to $10.


This is another way ahead way behind spot - not really much he can call a turn bet of $75 that you beat unless he has JJ - QQ or is a massive fish. I think I check this turn because it's not like you need to protect against really anything and he may bluff the river. No way you get 3 streets of value with the best hand here. You need to check 1 street.

Preflop: Good size 3-bet leaves a little room post flop.

Flop and turn: I check behind here a good % one street or the other. Often times it would be the flop here.

As played you ran into what I despise the most. c/c, c/c, bet. In my experience this is never a bluff. It is AA at worst.

Bet smaller on the flop

[QUOTE=Koko the munkey;46733568]This guy literally sat down at the table 5 minutes ago. This is his first or second hand.

GRUNCH

Pre is fine.

Flop is fine. At first I thought it might be a bit too large but then I remembered this is LLSNL. If they're calling $30, they're calling $40. Villain's range should be narrowed to Tx, 44, 55-99, JJ/QQ. I think we can discount AA a bit as there is a decent amount of time where villain will 4-bet. We beat 42 combos of pocket pairs and are behind 64 combos of AT-JT, 3 sets of 4's.

Turn is fine as well, a good amount to bet to target the weaker part of villain's range.

River is a fold, no draws come in. Unless this is a lolbadly played AA, this is a fold. LLSNL players aren't turning JJ-QQ into a bluff - they're trying to get to a cheap showdown because they're scared we may have them crushed. Even most of the Tx combos are not going to stuff the river (then again we don't know how bad this villain may be). Readless, we have to lay this down. Villain's value range that we beat is so narrow (12 combos of JJ-QQ) compared to what crushes us that calling here is -EV.

...........................G R U N C H

I don't really see him open jamming the river without 10x+. And we have nothing on him to think he would do this as a bluff. His line looks like 10x +.

It comes down to whether I think this guy is capable of bluffing here, but obviously he's just an average-looking or average-seeming player who gave off no tells, so you can fold. Sick spot, though.

It's spots like these that I really have to make an effort to be more conscious of so I can stop being such a goddam payoff wizard.

I agree with comments on checking this flop, two streets of value at most on paired flops, and what do you if youre c/r'ed on them, just check back and barrel turn/river.

Also by checking back villian will almost always lead huge on turn with flopped trips. Not saying we can then fold but, we can call and lose the minimum when he leads huge again on river.

AP snap fold, i agree, bottom of his range is AA.

Im also in the boat of not understanding the loose fish/no reads description. Theres always demographics though.

Fold.

Hard to see V having anything other than a full house+ 44,66,99,TT,T9s.

V is so polarized on the river. I doubt he even has non-boat Tx.

But there are almost literally 0 bluffing hands that c/c flop and turn.

Can't think of one reason to call river.

Which Tx do we put him on, exactly, that raise in EP and call a 3-bet from an unknown? ATo even?

QQ-JJ (12) vs 44/66/99/TT (10) + AA (6) is a snap call. As a matter of fact, we need 20-25 combos of Tx (e.g., ATs, KTs, QTs, JTs, T9s, ATo, KTo, QTo) to make this a fold.

Who says Villain is bluffing? Maybe he has JJ and just decided to get it in because he's gonna call anyway. Maybe he has 88 and is hoping you have AK.

I said I think villain is polarized.

So no, I don't think he has those hands.

And one last thing: if you're going to value bet only twice in three streets, which is suboptimal against standard villains IMO, one of those should absolutely be the flop, when Villain is most likely to call with AKo/AQs+/99/88 and your bet is given the least amount of credibility.

Cool, so we know nothing about this player.
He didn't play his first hand
He folded it, didn't limp, didn't raise, didn't call a flop bet, didn't call a turn bet, didn't show down anthing on the river. Didn't check/raise.
I assume he did none of these things since you didn't tell that he did any of these things.
So he folded.
So we have ONE, count it, one data point here.

Villain - no real reads yet. Bought in for $300.

We do however kwow that he folded 1 hand. So there's a 90% chance that he's not a maniac. We also know that he bought in (presumably) full stacked at a 1/2 game. Which isn't something that the average rec player, so immediatly I would think that he plays often enough.

But somehow you have characterized him as a 'loose fish'.

Can you tell me anything fishy that he has done so far?
He likely calls too wide pre flop, that'd be pretty fishy.
Or he limps too much, and folds too often without defending.
Or maybe he opens too wide, and doesn't cBet often enough so you can call/steal from him relentlessly.
Or maybe he opens too wide, and barrels 100% of the time, so you can float and steal a lot of turn cards.
Maybe he gives up too easily to raises otf or ott. So you can just min raise him every time and profit with ATC.
Maybe he stacks off with weap 1p hands, or two pairs on 4straight 4flush boards, or call with bottom two on a AAT84 board.

You see, each of these things could make someone a loose fishy player. Any of them could be exploitable post flop or pre flop.

But we can't know that, because he has folded for 1 hand. (Or played 1 hand in such a passive forgettable way, that we have no idea what it was by the time that we got home to post this hand.)

But without any of them, this guy is not a fish.
This guy is an unknown, and as an unknown, we can't lable his as anything.
In fact we are doing our self a disservice by characterizing him as anything at all because we are ratholing our thinking.

For anyone who wants to lable people as 'tag' 'lag' 'fish' 'loose' 'passive' 'nit' you need to have a reason to lable them as such. You need support and back up.

Don't just call someone a fish. Otherwise that makes you the fish because you are playing blind and stupid poker.

Check the turn absent a flush draw on the flop.

Fold the river as played.

If we check the turn and he donks the river, call almost all reasonable bets as he should be betting JJ/QQ here often enough and have some % of weird bluffs/made hands like 98s/88 for it to be profitable.

Well said IRTM.

I agree we need to bet the flop for value. Tons of value from pairs under T and maybe overs/backdoors.

I would check the turn. It is close, but I'm not sure you get enough value there, and V can have quite a bit of Tx. A turn bet could get value from a range that looks a lot like JJ, 77-99, but that's not enough given how easy it is to have some Tx. And with a turn bet, you also start to weight your range to Tx.

How many Tx do we think is in our range?

Are we 3-betting an unknown EP raiser with even ATs?

That's irrelevant because it's unlikely a random V is ranging us at all.

I guess I wasn't clear.

The point is that V won't give us value with the same wide range of hands on the turn that he does on the flop because our range looks more value-heavy when we bet again - even to someone who isn't putting us on a range.

Tx is so common combinatorically, and V can now fold some of his weaker hands (because we look stronger, and I don't expect him to stick around with overcards or hands like 22-44) and continue with stronger hands in a such a proportion that a turn value bet is very possibly unprofitable.

This means I'm not getting AI for 150bb unless I have top set at least.

It REALLY matters whether this is the first or second hand villain is playing. Also, position matters, age of villain (and hero) matters. Need this info to help with decision.

If villain is <30 Asian male, this is a common float play on the first hand and it is an instant call.

If this is a 60+ OMC, then this is a instant fold, your beat.

If OP is 60+, then call, most likely villain was floating you intending to shove any two cards as bluff all along. Probably put you on AK,AQ,etcc...

But not if 2nd hand played.

First, you guys are reading way too much into the loose fish part. It was an assumption on my part. Any middle-age white guy that sits in a 1-2 game is most likely a loose-passive fish IME.

All that being said, I posted all three threads, including this one, right after I got home and I was still upset about another losing session. Again, you guys read WAY, WAY too much into that.

Hero is late 30's, V was probably late 40's. This casino is in the middle of nowhere, Nevada, and I haven't played with anybody that I'd consider formidable. I've been here for a week. Everyone I've played with has been loose-passive.

Interesting. I rarely think this, but maybe that's because my husband (48) is an extremely aggressive player, but you guys would just think he's a random businessman. I usually think middle-aged guys are loose/aggressive or tight/passive.