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Gross spot with KK?

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01-13-2016 , 04:58 PM

#26

Mr_Doomed

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 1,629

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiffle

correct

Based on what?

Quote

01-13-2016 , 05:01 PM

#27

IAmRobik

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kebabkungen

Raise flop.

This is a tad ambitious.

Quote

01-13-2016 , 05:03 PM

#28

Mr_Doomed

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 1,629

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesFrancis

My $.02.

With cards like KK when the table is very deep, you don't really want to get sucked into an expensive hand. Try to end it preflop with a big bet or tread very, very carefully on subsequent streets.

Calling (both pre and on the flop) to get more money on the table and semi-trap seems more like a short or medium stack thing.

KK is a clear win-a-smallish-pot-or-muck hand when deep.

I just want to point out that when you are short stacked you don't want to slow play KK either. playing KK passively when deep stacked is acceptable if done for the right reasons. Playing KK passing when short or medium stacked is a huge mistake. You are missing value if the above is really your approach when you play big pairs.

Also it's not about ending the hand when we have a value hand, it's about getting value. We want calls from worse, not folds. You seem to be falling for fish logic. Raising your good hands large so you get folds is a bad reason to raise large.

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01-13-2016 , 05:04 PM

#29

Mr_Doomed

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 1,629

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmRobik

This is a tad ambitious.

I like it more than check folding.

Quote

01-13-2016 , 05:04 PM

#30

IAmRobik

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Doomed

As played you have to fold the turn. There is just no version were we can call given how we played the hand. If you aren't comfortable playing 1 pair post flop with deep stacks then 4 betting is the obvious choice. If we are going to check fold the flop we may as well fold pre flop because the odds to set mine weren't there.

This is where I drift away from you. I'd prefer 4! pre, but flatting is fine. Flatting flop is also fine. Once again, I agree checking back turn is best in this spot, but if we're going to bet to induce as it seems we did, then we should be calling. We literally said to our opponent "hey, our hand sucks ass. if you raise we'll fold." Villain is going to be shoving 100% of his range here. I know I would be tempted as **** to play AK/AQ/TT/QQ/KK/AA exactly like this in villain's spot.

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01-13-2016 , 05:06 PM

#31

sewktbk

journeyman

Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 247

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiffle

call pre
fold flop

????

If you flat KK preflop to a 3bet and fold to any cbet on a J-high board, you are getting exploited and are a long-term loser at poker.

Quote

01-13-2016 , 05:06 PM

#32

IAmRobik

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Doomed

I like it more than check folding.

We're not check folding? We're flatting flop. We're getting value from 1-2 hands by raising this flop, whereas we're losing value from way more hands that would double barrel with worse.

What do you raise to? What's your plan if shoved on?

Quote

01-13-2016 , 05:08 PM

#33

Mr_Doomed

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 1,629

Quote:

Originally Posted by xWindsor

His range seems pretty narrow 10's+, and if i cold 4 bet my hand is face up AK+ given image. Plus the UTG was a weak player who would continue with any top pair and might squeeze JJ/QQ. I felt like I was dominating both of their ranges and was in position against the pre flop raiser who would cbet almost any flop.

Hey wiffle, this was posted by the OP. See anything in there that proves you wrong? I'll give you a hint "...the pre flop raiser who would C bet almost any flop."

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01-13-2016 , 05:10 PM

#34

wiffle

banned

Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 860

a competent player isnt betting with no equity here against 2 strong ranges oop

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01-13-2016 , 05:10 PM

#35

Mr_Doomed

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 1,629

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmRobik

I'm not advocating raising flop. I am simply stating I like it better than a check fold. My line would be check/call flop, Check/check turn and decide flop. I posted that earlier.

In reality the mistake was not 4 betting pre flop.

Last edited by Mr_Doomed; 01-13-2016 at 05:18 PM.

Quote

01-13-2016 , 05:12 PM

#36

wiffle

banned

Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 860

Quote:

Originally Posted by sewktbk

????

If you flat KK preflop to a 3bet and fold to any cbet on a J-high board, you are getting exploited and are a long-term loser at poker.

we're the ones doing the exploiting

i do ok for myself at poker

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01-13-2016 , 05:13 PM

#37

IAmRobik

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Quote:

Originally Posted by wiffle

a competent player isnt betting with no equity here against 2 strong ranges oop

It's not a flop that hits a huge 3! calling range from a BB/utg+2.

Quote

01-13-2016 , 05:14 PM

#38

IAmRobik

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kebabkungen

Im starting to believe you are a troll. Every hand you give ridiculously nitty advice.

Raise to 300 pre and gii on all none A flops.
Raise flop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr_Doomed

I'm not advocating raising flop. I am simply stating I like it better than a check fold. My line would be check/call flop, Check/check turn and decide flop. I posted that earlier.

I was talking about what this person posted.. Not sure why we're even having this discussion lol

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01-13-2016 , 05:15 PM

#39

sewktbk

journeyman

Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 247

Edit.

Quote

01-13-2016 , 05:18 PM

#40

scrybe

adept

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 956

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiffle

if his range pre is jj+ aq+ and then he bets this flop we are in really bad shape. we're hoping for him to have qq or akss/aqss and for the guy behind us to not have anything on a board that hits him pretty hard

4b/f pre is fine, but i prefer calling

SB is c-betting like 100% of his range on the flop, particularly since ours is likely capped due to calling the 3!. Guy behind us is really capped so has like set of 99s or draw or is folding.

im not sure why we are flatting KK preflop and not looking to get it in when the flop comes
1) no ace
2) draw heavy for villains range
3) our hand is under-repped

im gii.

Quote

01-13-2016 , 05:18 PM

#41

scrybe

adept

Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 956

Quote:

Originally Posted by sewktbk

????

If you flat KK preflop to a 3bet and fold to any cbet on a J-high board, you are getting exploited and are a long-term loser at poker.

Quote

01-13-2016 , 05:20 PM

#42

sewktbk

journeyman

Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 247

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiffle

we're the ones doing the exploiting

i do ok for myself at poker

I'm not sure who you think you're exploiting when you're folding KK OTF in this spot.

I'm not against flatting KK pre in certain spots, but i certainly cant see how folding this flop to a cbet is profitable.

Why are you calling preflop if you're gonna fold on this board?

Quote

01-13-2016 , 05:49 PM

#43

xWindsor

newbie

Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 16

Quote:

Originally Posted by xWindsor

Villain is a fairly competant regular, solid/standard range.

Stacks are very deep and the game is 2/5. Hero has 1200 in the BB, UTG has 2000, SB has 1400

Preflop

UTG+2 raises 30, SB re raises 100, Hero(BB) calls with KdKh, UTG+2 calls

Pot is 300

Flop 3s 9c Js

SB bets 170, hero calls, UTG+2 folds

Turn 6s

SB checks, Hero bets 190, SB raises to 850/all in

Hero?

I just realized that I put the 6s on the turn, but it was actually the 6c which totally changes the replies. My bad

Quote

01-13-2016 , 06:44 PM

#44

IAmRobik

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Quote:

Originally Posted by scrybe

Because when we shove this flop we're only really getting called by QQ and MAYBE AJ, which we beat. Otherwise, I don't think we're really that good against the 3! range.

Quote

01-13-2016 , 06:49 PM

#45

Kebabkungen

adept

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 1,067

This thread is fkn lol. Do you all play in the nittiest games ever? Once you flat pre every 1-2/3 villain discounts AA/KK. Its a drawy board and most people will think you are FOS when you raise. You can easily get it in for value on the flop or turn unless you are playing on the nittest tables in the world (and you should table change if you are at a table like this).

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01-13-2016 , 06:50 PM

#46

IAmRobik

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Quote:

Originally Posted by xWindsor

I just realized that I put the 6s on the turn, but it was actually the 6c which totally changes the replies. My bad

Well it's better that you did that because the hand was interesting before. Now it's the snappest of snap calls

Quote

01-13-2016 , 06:51 PM

#47

IAmRobik

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kebabkungen

1) This is a 2/5 game
2) Not that many people 3b Jx hands OOP.
3) Hero said villain's range is really tight, do you even read the OP?

Quote

01-13-2016 , 06:58 PM

#48

Kebabkungen

adept

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 1,067

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmRobik

1) This is a 2/5 game
2) Not that many people 3b Jx hands OOP.
3) Hero said villain's range is really tight, do you even read the OP?

He said pre-flop raiser would cbet any hand. Did you read what he wrote? With an underrepped hand on a drawy board against auto c-betting v its a simple GII. You are easily beating even his OOP range with KK, and he can easily find a call on this board with your action pre. Nits.

The only reason to defend a scared approach here is if both OP and the rest of the table are SUPER abc pre and never make any moves at all post, playing tournament style pot control poker every hand. this never happens at 2-5 ( and yea, 2-5 is just marginally better than 1-2/3).

Quote

01-13-2016 , 06:59 PM

#49

sewktbk

journeyman

Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 247

Quote:

Originally Posted by IAmRobik

Well it's better that you did that because the hand was interesting before. Now it's the snappest of snap calls

LOL yup!

Quote

01-13-2016 , 07:12 PM

#50

IAmRobik

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Kebabkungen

Please tell me what hands in the villain's 3! range (as perceived and outlined by our hero), we are beating that get it in on the flop 240BB deep?

I'd argue that in many games, even QQ and AJ find folds some portion of the time to a flop raise. Also, are you shoving the flop? If you're not shoving the flop are you raise/folding? raise/calling?

I don't think that you think very much when you play poker and just mash buttons

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