1/3 game; villain is a professional (and I mean professional - I don't actually know him personally, but by reputation he is a university student who pays for his tuition and living expenses entirely through poker). Effective stacks approx $800.

2 limpers, villain raises to $20 in the CO, hero calls with K-Jdd on the btn, blinds fold, both limpers call. Pot is $80.

Flop 9-7-6 rainbow; 1 diamond. Checks around.

Turn 3d. Checks to villain who bets $50, hero calls, both limpers fold. Pot is $180.

River 4d, villain bets $120, hero raises to $300, villain re-raises all-in.

I can definitely see villain opening from the CO with a suited diamond ace, electing not to cbet the flop, then betting the turn with a BDFD.

The only hand I can conceivably beat is if villain is bluff re-raising with the Ad blocker, but this is 1/3! I can maybe see very advanced players run such a bluff at high stakes, but at 1/3 villain has to know his FE is near 0 after getting raised OTR after the flush draw hits!

Eurgh!

Yeah/as described fold.

Not sure if river raise by hero is warranted....is villain calling with 3rd nuts or worse?

Lol

Don't fold sorry you lost.

Hmmm... Honestly, my thoughts OTR was pretty much "2nd nuts, raise!" I suppose Q-Tdd might call my raise, or Q-9dd (it was not the diamond 9 OTF), although I think Q-9 would've cbet, and I'm not sure if Q-9/Q-T would've raised pre-flop; probably would've limped along.

So yes, now that you point it out, my raise probably wasn't warranted against this particular player.

Against the typical 1/3 player though, hell I might even get called by 5x, so I think raising the river definitely would've been right in general.

I asked villain about his hand and told him (didn't show) that I folded the 2nd nuts; he just smiled at me and didn't answer. Gah! I'm sure it was the right fold, but just felt so gross having to do it!

Of course. It's a BDFD and literally no high diamonds are out here, plus a straight.

We're not deep enough for me to ever fold the second nuts, especially against a young so-called "professional" player (would against old man).

If you fold the second nuts against this guy, you are massssiiveelllllyyy overfolding.

ummm....265BB deep is not deep enough to fold the 2nd nuts?

Villain as described pays tuition and all living expenses thru poker/are you disputing OP's account of villain? What are you basing that on-please explain..

There are almost no pros playing 1/3. Maybe if it's the only game available.

I know a few so-called pros in my local game who actually just have rich parents and cultivate the image. Not really that important though, as I'm still calling this off against a young guy regardless of background info.

If you're literally only calling off with the nuts when this deep, then you shouldn't be playing deep. Yes, I would *sometimes* fold the second nuts but not when it's a backdoor flush on a straight board. I regularly play deep 1/3 (>$1k stacks) and would never fold here. It's calling ~$450 to win $1600 so we only need to be good ~30% of the time. Even if we're beat the majority of the time, I don't think he has the nuts 70+% of the time.

I'm guessing you folded the best hand and then made the massive mistake of telling V you're willing to fold the second nuts. Hence the smirk, you just gave him license to print money against you.

Apparently he does have FE, since you're willing to fold the second nuts.

depends entirely on his view of you. If he thinks you have a fold button, I can see him doing this with the NF blocker and would call. If he thinks you're a random 1/3 player, fold.

Never, ever tell him, or the rest of the table, that you folded the second nuts. If you chose to fold, make some comment about having a pair to go with your flush, or some ish to make it look like a little one.

Just to be clear/
Are you saying villain here shows up with only the nuts or nut flush blocker? Or do you see villain showing up w/3rd nuts or worse? (don't want to misquote/misinterpret you)

Ban for trolling

Bruuhhhh... Not raising the river he is GG levels of nittery. Absoutely V is calling with worse. He has lots of flushes in his range, and will probably call with them all.

I'm not going to lie. Against a solid player, I totally understand folding this. There is just no F-ing way he jams a Q high flush for value. This 3-bet is super polarizing, and more weighted towards the nuts. I probably just call and chalk it up to a cooler, but objectively, quietly folding this river and pretending like you were bluffing or something is probably right. I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen a 3-bet river bluff work at 1/2. Jason Pierre Paul could count this on one hand. So could Captain Hook. It doesn't happen.

Trivial call. Much more interesting hand if you have a lesser flush.

id call just cuz its 430 more to win a pot of what 1640.

It should be around calling 400 to win about 1260, about 1:3.2 odds. We don't include our call into the final value of the pot.

I can be quite a station esp when we are high up in our range but I think tbh we can just let this go and never tell anybody.... coming from a Uni student, I think it's a little less likely he just completely spazzes here with worse that often. Maybe if he were those rich Asian international kids whose parents have million dollar companies and spoil them like crazy, but if his bills and tuition rely on poker earnings I just think he'd have to be feeling really ambitious (drugged up or just heat-of-the-moment crazy) to just yolo shove here when we always have a flush. I don't ever see Qxdd shoving here ever especially because he can't have KQdd (which i seriously doubt shoves anyway). So he can't really be jamming Qxdd here or 10 high flushes or lower for value.

That leaves bluffs and Axdd. He can have every combo of Axdd here basically and i'd say he checks Axdd otf quite often 4-ways and then lead turn with them, and you have to find a good amount of bluffs before you can even breakeven on this call.

River is pretty clear raise.

4-way I'd x/c all my Axdd here fwiw.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. A pro, especially one who is likely underrolled, is not shoving 3rd nuts or less here when it is 100% obvious that Hero has a flush, and if he has 3rd nuts or less then Hero has all the NF combos and quite a few of the 2nd NF combos.

V shoving here for value with a smaller flush would be atrocious. Not saying it never, ever happens, but our read is way off if this guy could be doing that.

Hm, yea I dunno about this hand anymore.

In game, I probably wouldn't make this fold against any other player; certainly never against an unknown 1/3 player. But this guy, it's not just that I know he makes his current living playing poker, it's also because I know that through other people while he does not know me at all - I think we've played for less than an hour another time before he got a spot at a higher stakes table and moved, and a few other regs started talking about this kid after he left.

So to him I am definitely the random 1/3 player with no fold button, which was why I strongly felt like his shove was with the nuts. The price on the call would've been good, but it would be insane for him to think he's not getting called here at a 1/3 table, so with anything lower than the nut flush I'd expect him to call my raise, not re-raise.

Maybe I did fold the best hand... My gut was definitely telling me he had it though because he should not have thought he had any FE against me here.

Good fold then, imo

If you are an unknown to him I would probably fold. He would have to take this turn line with the naked Ad on a board where he doesn’t rep much and then try to bluff you off a flush, and likely a big flush, which seems pretty ambitious.

I also don’t think he would raise the Q high flush for value. I don’t think these two positions are mutually exclusive though since you have way more A/K high flushes than smaller flushes given the river action and preflop hand selection.

I'm throwing my self into the mix because I think I could learn a lot from this hand too.
Eff tacks are 800
Hero so far invested 20,50 , 300= 370
Pot before villain jam should be 600?

We've created an SPR of 1 and besides that, how can you raise like that on the river without taking into consideration villain jamming on us?

Do we just bet out without any thought/a plan?

How can one even consider folding?

I guess I'm just a fish but I'd never fold in this scenario.

Moi Fish?

Hero is a passive fish. He shouldn't have called with KJs preflop; calling is fishy. He's not raising the river with some random air. Hero is behind 7 combos of nut flushes, he's ahead of virtually nothing that takes this line. Maybe, just maybe he's ahead of one combo of QTs. Your repeitition of consonants and vowels doesn't change that fact.

Dont know if anyone caught this but there is also one straight flush combo depending on which card is the diamond otf...

65dd and 75dd which are pretty reasonable iso raises from co this deep

Uhhhh…. What?

I'm for sure not the best player out there, but you're saying KJs is a mandatory 3-bet pre-flop? I disagree. Anyone else want to comment on this point?

SPR was designed only for heads-up on the flop scenarios. We sometimes use it when discussing multi way spots on the flop, but it's not at all a good fit for discussing hands OTT or OTR.

As for raise/folding, sometimes a raise is for value, and it would likely get called by a lot of smaller flushes, but once re-raised we are toast.

it's not just a question of pot odds. Its also a question of if we're good often enough to cover them. And how much of the pot came out of our stack is meaningless. That money belongs to teh pot now.

KJs is definitely not a mandatory 3-bet pre....

I'd much rather call and let the whales come into the pot with their garbage, whereas if we 3b we're just bloating the pot vs a pro IP, which I don't think is bad bc we have a hand that plays very well postflop IP. and I don't think 1/3 pros are generally that good anyway. but we win our the vast majority of our money from the whales, not trying to outplay pros.

If I had 22-99 here I'm always just flatting to let the whales in so I can stack them with my set, 3-betting may make sense in other scenarios but this one it's a pretty clear call. 1010 can go either way but I think I like flatting specifically here. JJ+ ofc 3-betting basically always.

Right? So why did I get called a passive fish for flatting with KJs pre-flop...

I'm not super experienced myself and I tend to auto-believe what most people say on here, but that comment was a bit wtf.