I'm going to write more about this later when I get home and can run pokerstove, but for now...perhaps she thinks your biggish sizing is looking for fold equity, a reason to call.

Question to the OP: is she wearing any flashy bling? How quickly did she act? Are you a young hoodie guy? Any other reads can help us weigh her range.

You make the assumption that she is thinking like this. At 2/5 live I don't think you can make that assumption until you have some evidence. I think T9 is definitely part of her range so you have to call.

Well, if you can kindly point out what doesn't make sense to you and why, I'd be more than happy to discuss it with you. Just saying something makes zero sense to you doesn't leave much to go on.

I think it's a call. if she has a better set, standard cooler. but the overbet seems like she's just trying to push you out of the pot imo.

Might as well start doing this in threads I've already posted in:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...small-1231376/

I expect this to be a big hand pretty much always. The reason I'm advocating a call in this thread is because I think it's possible that Villain sees T9 as a big enough hand to shove with.

the reason I say she's bluffing is because most likely she would have raised with TT or 99. especially as a tourney player.

on the flip side, it's very reasonable to assume she does have two-pair here and she really thought she was good. that would make a lot more sense given the pre-flop action.

OP, please say you didn't fold..

I think she is raising 1010 from the cut-off pf, so its 910 and 99. Call. She easily ships this in with 910. Table is getting puked on if she turns over 99.

without seeing any spoilers I'd strongly consider folding here. From the player description, and being a 15 year tournament player myself, there have been countless times I have limped 99/TT in spots like this.

The all in flop overshove to me is also indicative of a tournament move I often utilize:

When my opponent shows me his hand is super strong and I have the nuts, overshove now before a scare card appears because they cannot fold.

You got check-raised and decided to pop it 200 more. You turned your hand face up as a lower set or top 2. She has that beat and doesn't think you can pass, hence the all in.

-It is very possible to fold sets if you limp in cheap. Especially 300bb deep.

-If you include AT and A9 in her range then this should never be a fold.

-Overship/powershove what are you talking about?

-You just seem to contradict multiple things you say in the same post.

For the hand itself it's one of those in the moment things. If you think she is bad enough to shove twopair here then you have to call. Shoving twopair is bad if you're considering folding a set.

fold that sheeeeit. Don't feel like going into too much detail, but she has TTT or 999 here way more than she has two pair here (probably a lot more TTT thinking nothing can call a flop bet). Here's the basic reason: flop is limped like 5 way, and she checks 2nd last to act. Avg player with T9 (or overpair as some thought she might have) here will usually bet it, b/c think of the cards they should be mildly afraid of A,K,Q,J,8,7,6,5 (all can make higher two pair, straights, trips), you're only really wanting to see a T,9,4,3,2 on the turn. That's a lot of cards to avoid. When someone has a set, they think nothing's going to beat me, so they go into trap mode. Then she c/r flop like let's keep these guys in and is not afraid of getting sucked out on, then you reraise her big again so she thinks since nobody 3-bet folds flops might as well stick it in now before something bad happens. If you take away just half of the T9os, so it's TT,99,T9s, and 1/2 T9o, you end up as a 60/40 dog, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a more realistic weighting of her range based on how she played it: TT,99,T9s (and maybe add one combo of T9o).

I disagree with those discountin her ability to overplay 2pair. We don't k kw much about her and while it's true she may be able
To limp 99,Tt, it still is less likely that she did so than that she's way overvaluing top two. I think his is a call without any other info. Plus we still have one out and those always seem to hit.

no bling, she took maybe 10 seconds to ship it in and mumbled "aahhh, alright i'm all in".

i'm 25 but not really poker geared out.

If you don't think ou were meant to hear his mumble then it's an insta ship.

yea that's hard to say. it seemed like she didn't say it as if she was announcing to the table, more like talking to herself. but i was also directly to her left so i cant say with any certainty.




RESULTS:

I actually didn't see that she had $1400, she had 6 stacks of red ($5) and a stack of black and green ($100, $25), on the opposite side of the red where i couldn't really see them. so i looked over, thought she had about $800-$900 and snap called. my mistake, i should have asked, but i hadn't seen her in any major hand at all so it was hard to imagine she'd be 300bb deep lol.

anyways she showed 10 10 and i somehow missed my draw to quads.

**** happens. For those saying don't limp, this hand would have played out exactly the same with a pfr. I wouldn't sweat thAt one toouch man. Except for maybe getting an accurate chip count haha. P

Also, for those who said I should be raising preflop, i definitely do raise here a lot. i just don't do anything 100% of the time, and this happened to be one of the times i limped.

Oh and maybe punch her in the vagina for hollywooding on you.

Why did you 3b the flop?

I think this is a big reason to start discounting T9 in her range.

@spike, yyyyyyup. lol


@matic, a couple reasons. first being that she's 300bb deep, and I want to set up a river shove. calling $75 makes the pot about $200. On the turn she checks, I bet $150, she calls. Pots now $500 on the river. It's going to be hard to get the last $600-$700 in there (which is what I assumed she was playing, even harder to get in the $1000+ that she actually had).

also, because 2/5 players will typically slow down a lot at the first sign of trouble. so if she has 2pair, and a J, Q, K, 7, or 5 comes on the turn it could kill my action a little.

It is very possible to fold sets if you limp cheaply, but my intent was to relay that if we are setmining and we hit our set we should not consider snap folding. Ever. It's not that often that you hit a set and even rarer that the set is beat OTF. So we should at least take the time to consider other variables: Stack Sizes, past hands, and information about villain really should be triple considered.

I'm not convinced of this, not 300bb deep at least. If this was a short or normal stack I'd tend to agree with you. But this is pretty deep and we're talking about a fairly unknown villain, other than she's a tourney player.

Overship/Powershove = Someone betting their entire stack of $1400 into a pot of $275. Admittedly I went back and looked at the pot sizes here and realized she is really shoving her stack into a pot of about $600, which is a bit of an overshove but not as big as I previously thought.

This certainly fair. I often type out my reasonings as I go along and leave my thought process on paper. Often I'll come up with something, then contradict it later because I'm working out the reasoning as I go along. I was taught a long time ago to work a problem out and reason in this manner, so that way if there is an error in my thought process it can be corrected/educated. I'm no pro: I'm continually learning and educating myself and in order to do that I feel I have to leave my ego at home and open myself up to critisim and debate, and the best way to do that is to expose myself as bare as I possibly can.

Maybe I can present this idea in a different way: I HATE the people who just said "No, you are wrong" and just leave it at that. In a competition environment, sure I don't mind this behavior at all: No sense in educating your opponent on how to best beat you. But in learning situations like this forum that kind of mentality has no place. We are all here to learn, to help, to grow and to better ourselves in something we all love to do. There's no reason to just talk down on someone by saying, "Folding here is Bad" and just leaving it at that. It helps no one, and doesn't contribute to the game in any way.

I want to make sure that if I say someone is wrong, I back it up with my own thought process so we can all learn and participate. This is why I try to break down posts as often as I can. My thoughts go into it, good or bad right or wrong.

Eh...I'm probably just rambling here. Anyways, thank you for explaining why you felt I made no sense. I appreciate it!

Sorry she had TT. I'm not folding a set even for this much. It's just a cooler.

Maybe I'm too nitty but this would likely be a fold for me without knowing more about villain. IMO a middle aged woman that we suspect to be a tourny player doesn't 4bet shove with less than a set here enough to make me think 55 is good.

I think she would usually shut it down with anything other than 99 or 1010 when you 3 bet.

Any info about timing of her bets/shove or her body language?

This made reading the thread worth it.

You know what they say: "When someone makes a big bet the first thing to consider is that he/she just made a big bet." Also "if you can't fold the winning hand you will never win at poker."

I always think to myself in your shoes otf "why isn't she afraid of a set?" Often times the answer is because she has one! This is not mubs, she is repping a set seriously.

All that said tough spot. Folding sets is usually bad business and most on this forum do not play much as deep as you were in this hand. Hope the memory of this hand does not sour you for too long.

Excuse me but your opponent just check/4-bet shoved 279BB on the flop in a limped pot.