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Old 09-17-2014, 07:58 PM   #1
celine_20200
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got too much involved with marginal hand

here's a hand I play badly, regardless of result which I'll tell later

1-1 game. Less loose than it typically is (average table VPIP is not 70% but say 40%). Some pots, like once in every other orbit, are actually raised and taken preflop with no callers

Hero (200 behind) played about 2 hours. I played really well, had strong discipline. For ex: didn't play hands like KJs, 87s early position. Played aggressive LP post flop and took a hand or two with strong C-bets. Laid down AK easily post flop when faced aggression from two parties etc. These may seem normal to any regular player but for a recreational beginner 1-1 player, it is in fact discipline.

villain (got about 200 too): didn't play much. didn't get involve in big hands. limps / folds. occasionally raises from LP but don't push it hard

Preflop: 3 limper/ to Hero including Villain from MP. Hero limps with Ad7h on the button. Both blinds check. 6 players to the flop

Here I should have folded, period. I played simply because I was card dead for a while and thought it's OK to play a crap like A7o once a while when you have position to everyone else. Anyone thinking I shouldn't fold here?

Flop (6, 6 players): 7s 7c 2h

Checked around to me. I bet 5 into a pot of 6. Everyone but villain folds

Turn (16, 2 players): 4c

Villain checks. I bet 10. Villain re-raises to 23. I call

River (62, 2 players): 10d

Villain bets 55

Hero?

Thoughts on the hand would be much appreciated. Thanks!

Last edited by celine_20200; 09-17-2014 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 09-17-2014, 08:12 PM   #2
Koss
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Re: got too much involved with marginal hand

Depends totally on villain. Do you consider him a good player. How many 7s are in his range? A good player won't limp Q7s from mp, so there arent a while lot of worse 7s in their range. If he plays lots of hands, could have lots of 7s in his range, and isnt likely to fold, shove. If not, call.

You dont show the river card but it hardly matters.

Also fold pre.
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Old 09-17-2014, 08:17 PM   #3
celine_20200
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Re: got too much involved with marginal hand

thanks. River is 10d, just edited the post

I also wonder if someone agrees with pre limp here. If not, I'll prob never limp A-crap hands from button anymore (or from any other position for that matter)
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Old 09-17-2014, 09:31 PM   #4
venice10
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Re: got too much involved with marginal hand

Back in the stone ages of on-line poker, there was a study done with pokerstars that went through what the average player won or lost by hand holding and position. People lost more money with A7o than any other hand with the exception of A6o. The reason is that most every player today knows that 72o is crap and will just fold it. Lots of people played A7o because it has an ace. The problem is that on an ace flop, everyone will fold if they don't have an ace or will have a better one. That's why you fold A7o.

The other thing to keep in mind that trips are not sets. They're pretty obvious if you keep betting. In a limped pot, you're hoping to be up against 88 and 99 held by a passive player. As is, you have a villain by your own description is passive and doesn't push good hands. Once he starts raising, you have to figure he has better than trips. I'd fold the turn.

River is an easy fold. If the T doesn't bother him, you can eliminate 88 and 99 from his range completely.

Now it sounds like you called and won. It happens. If it did, you need to change your read of the villain considerably.
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Old 09-17-2014, 09:44 PM   #5
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Re: got too much involved with marginal hand

Raising or losing the A7o pre. Limping is just playing bingo. It's a tough spot because you don't know if he thinks trips are the nuts. That's why raising pre is best
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Old 09-17-2014, 09:50 PM   #6
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Re: got too much involved with marginal hand

As played call.

Fold pre flop.
Or raise if you have a good handle on how the table please and can maneuver well post flop.
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Old 09-18-2014, 01:56 AM   #7
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Re: got too much involved with marginal hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by celine_20200 View Post
thanks. River is 10d, just edited the post

I also wonder if someone agrees with pre limp here. If not, I'll prob never limp A-crap hands from button anymore (or from any other position for that matter)
w the A7o pre here I would say that Folding>Raising>Calling

OTR in this hand I'm not feeling great about it; but I'm never finding a fold against a reasonably loose/bad opponent which is sounds like this game is chalk full of. It sounds like a home game type scenario and I've just seen way too many people limping/overvaluing hands like K7,97,87,76,75. Of course he still has hands that beat you in his range like 22,44,72, and the puke T7; however they're kind of coolers in a lineup this loose.

We can all see that since you posted that he did have one of the puke hands, take it as a lesson to fold pre next time. I promise, if you're just starting up it will end up being the most solid advise that you get for a long time; it ends up being the resolution to tons and tons of post on here.
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Old 09-18-2014, 04:27 AM   #8
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Re: got too much involved with marginal hand

I raise river.

My decision is influenced heavily by what I saw that player play earlier. If he's kinda loose like 40 ish VPIP, I raise, if he play tight like 20% (tight for 1/2) I call.
At these stakes, you can get a lot of calls on the river with worse.
Do we really put him on 22-44-27 ??? The guy from the description doesn't seems terribad so we can remove 27 but he can have a lot of 67s-78s etc in his range and other mid pockets that don't beat you like 88. He NEVER has 22-44 why ?

Why would he check raise turn ? Some draws (flush mostly) started on the turn, some overcards can throw him off etc. He 100% has overpairs or midpairs or a 7. Why would he raise with a fullhouse ? If he had 22-44 he would probably raise river or donk bet river.

If he has T7 so be it, but I think he has a lot of other 7 99-88-66 maybe even JJ in his range. Weirdly played AA and KK are there too.
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Old 09-18-2014, 06:22 AM   #9
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Re: got too much involved with marginal hand

Fold pre. Put all the money in at some point. Vs aren't folding 7x on the dryest board ever. Calling down seems like a waste even in a limped pot where V could have a boat. If you lose then you can remind yourself later why you shouldn't limp A7o.
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Old 09-18-2014, 08:45 AM   #10
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Re: got too much involved with marginal hand

Either raise this pre or fold. As played, pretty easy call depending on what read you have on your opponent you could go for a raise and get called by weaker trips.
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Old 09-18-2014, 09:09 AM   #11
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Re: got too much involved with marginal hand

Not knowing the dynamics of 1-1 I will hold my 'tongue' a bit here ...

I agree it's fold/raise/call PF here. Use the button to see whats going on here, especially at a passive table like you describe it would be much better to just take down the $5 and move onto the next hand. Limping does you no good against a huge portion of the other holdings. You are better off with A5 than A7, at least you can make a straight some times. I don't really like limping with Arag anyway, but some are better than others .. limping is WAY different than flatting an opening bet or raising yourself.

Personally I would check through this Turn IP and see if V wants to bluff at the River. You have to decide if you want to raise at that point. He either has a 7 or doesn't and in most cases he doesn't, so let him lead the River. This is tough since you did hit 'bingo' and want to get value, but in most cases they are going to fold out if you double barrel. In this case getting played back at changed the hand quite a bit at that moment.

Why did you back off on the Turn bet? Bet sizing here is part of your 'story' to V ...

Not sure I can find a fold here, he could have 7x and think you are on JJ/AK or something. The raise should give us pause, but it never happens if you check behind on the Turn and let him lead the River. GL
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Old 09-18-2014, 10:10 AM   #12
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Re: got too much involved with marginal hand

I would never check turn. Nothing got there. Pure value bet.
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Old 09-18-2014, 12:28 PM   #13
iraisetoomuch
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Re: got too much involved with marginal hand

I just want to make sure:
We do have A7 on a 7724Tr board, right?
I'm not losing my mind, am I?
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Old 09-18-2014, 12:42 PM   #14
wj94
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Re: got too much involved with marginal hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by iraisetoomuch View Post
I just want to make sure:
We do have A7 on a 7724Tr board, right?
I'm not losing my mind, am I?
V had 22 or 44 obv.
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Old 09-18-2014, 12:52 PM   #15
ThaNEWPr0fess0r
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Re: got too much involved with marginal hand

Grunch.

Well, you seem to be on the right track with the folding of KJs/87s/AK, although I don't really know the details of those hands so can't be sure. But yeah... definitely fold pre-flop. Honestly 87o is a better hand to limp with OTB IMO. Honestly, AxXo type hands all the way up to ATo really suck IMO. It might be in your best interest to actually make a mental note to never play A6o-A9o. Those hands are just really crappy. ATo... well it starts to look more appealing because it has dominates so many Tx hands that LLSNL Villains will play. But unfortunately it's basically right in the middle of most AX type hands that Villains will play for a raise.

Anyway... Yeah, absolutely fold pre-flop. Once the flop comes out, well, this is like the nut flop for your hand. Your post flop play looks fine to me. Whether or not you want to play for stacks here comes down to how loose Villain is. If he's c/r'ing all 7x type hands OTT, I actually don't mind 3betting/getting it in. But against most players, I would just play as you did and flat the turn, and flat the river. There are too many 7x combo's that you beat to be folding here, despite Villains rather large river bet.
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Old 09-18-2014, 01:05 PM   #16
MadamIamAdam
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Re: got too much involved with marginal hand

Never folding riv ag unknown.
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Old 09-18-2014, 04:59 PM   #17
@rctic monkey
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Re: got too much involved with marginal hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
Back in the stone ages of on-line poker, there was a study done with pokerstars that went through what the average player won or lost by hand holding and position. People lost more money with A7o than any other hand with the exception of A6o. The reason is that most every player today knows that 72o is crap and will just fold it. Lots of people played A7o because it has an ace. The problem is that on an ace flop, everyone will fold if they don't have an ace or will have a better one. That's why you fold A7o.

The other thing to keep in mind that trips are not sets. They're pretty obvious if you keep betting. In a limped pot, you're hoping to be up against 88 and 99 held by a passive player. As is, you have a villain by your own description is passive and doesn't push good hands. Once he starts raising, you have to figure he has better than trips. I'd fold the turn.

River is an easy fold. If the T doesn't bother him, you can eliminate 88 and 99 from his range completely.

Now it sounds like you called and won. It happens. If it did, you need to change your read of the villain considerably.
This is too nitty, I'm afraid.
We can't just presume villain doesn't raise trips.
Since we beat most combo's of 7x (most likely 78, 76, Maybe 79) and there are only 3 combo's of 22 and 44 (each) this is closer to a raise than a fold.
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Old 09-18-2014, 08:35 PM   #18
MadamIamAdam
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Re: got too much involved with marginal hand

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Originally Posted by @rctic monkey View Post
This is too nitty, I'm afraid.
We can't just presume villain doesn't raise trips.
Since we beat most combo's of 7x (most likely 78, 76, Maybe 79) and there are only 3 combo's of 22 and 44 (each) this is closer to a raise than a fold.
+1
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Old 09-19-2014, 09:05 AM   #19
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Re: got too much involved with marginal hand

Over-limping from LP is the second worst move in poker, second only one to completing from SB. Playing Ace-trash (sooted or off suit) is a terrible rookie mistake.

Never folding this river. V could easily play a worse 7 (K7, Q7, 87) the same way.
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Old 09-19-2014, 09:20 AM   #20
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Re: got too much involved with marginal hand

By calling pre you may be against 22 or 44, but regardless at this point you can't fold river. You can't raise either, just call it.

If you would have raised the hand preflop and it could have played differently.

Your opponent might have been on a flush/straight draw on the turn and building the pot. This is less likely but we are talking about a 1-1 game here.
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Old 09-19-2014, 09:37 AM   #21
spikeraw22
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Re: got too much involved with marginal hand

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Originally Posted by bulls_horn View Post
Over-limping from LP is the second worst move in poker, second only one to completing from SB. Playing Ace-trash (sooted or off suit) is a terrible rookie mistake.

Never folding this river. V could easily play a worse 7 (K7, Q7, 87) the same way.
Disagree with this. Overlimping definitely has a place. It just gets a bad rap because most people do too much of it and with the wrong hands.

Right on about completing SB though.
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Old 09-19-2014, 09:41 AM   #22
timmay28
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Re: got too much involved with marginal hand

Quote:
Originally Posted by celine_20200 View Post
I played simply because I was card dead for a while
it takes a sick mind to sit down and fold all day

but doing so actually prints $$$

be real with yourself and decide, am i here for recreation or to make money?
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Old 09-19-2014, 09:49 AM   #23
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Re: got too much involved with marginal hand

Fold pre. Re-raise turn to $75, and fold to an all-in (unless you have any read or suspicion that V is terrible and overplays hands).
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Old 09-19-2014, 01:54 PM   #24
ThaNEWPr0fess0r
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Re: got too much involved with marginal hand

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Originally Posted by spikeraw22 View Post
Disagree with this. Overlimping definitely has a place. It just gets a bad rap because most people do too much of it and with the wrong hands.

Right on about completing SB though.
+1
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Old 09-19-2014, 02:04 PM   #25
Cheers4Booze
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Re: got too much involved with marginal hand

You're spot on about the necessary discipline it takes to fold KJs, ATo, etc. from EP, so pat yourself on the back, well done. But I think you're wrong regarding A7o OTB w/ 3 limpers ahead.

It is ok in my book. Particularly if you are familiar with Vs, confident in your reads and able to get away from second best, e.g. A29r to medium or greater resistance.

Relative to the online world where a lot of stealing occurs preflop, in live games a lot of stealing occurs post-flop in position. Vs like to see flops but often do not continue unless they connect, therefore, fold equity preflop is low and high post.

Further, you will often 'be on a steal,' and wind up at SD with the best hand due to the pervasive passiveness most Vs play their draws with.

Raising creates a bloated pot that is likely to go 3+ ways with a RIO holding, I'm folding pre before I'm raising.

By limping OTB w/ a med-small A we put ourselves in position to steal, and potentially dominate another poor soul when we flop trips. Preflop, limp>fold>raise.

Flop is good, as is turn. Flatting OTT once we get raised lets V keep his initiative and our decisions stay easy. It's unlikely he picked up a draw or was on one previously.

I don't mind raising OTT either in order to build a pot and prevent a scare card, although there are few.I just think we're more likely to get paid off when we raise his river lead rather than reraise OTT and bet and OTR.

Shove AI OTR, its only a slight overbet.
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