live game in Bicycle Casino
A J UTG
5-10
$1100 eff. stack
Hero raises $35, MP calls, BU calls, SB calls
flop J 8 7
Hero bet $90, MP calls, BU calls, SB raise $400, Hero?

most of the time it's a fold for me, but this is the spot, where SB had tons of draws. SB actually is regular, but action and loose player.
How A in our hand will effect to our decision?

Not the most fun spot ever, but if you assign SB a C/R range into 3 opponents, I think a (obvi non nut) flush draw is such a small part of it that we will figure out that we're in bad shape against his x/r range. 10-9 has you running near dead as do sets and a poorly played QQ+.

The 'action' read is something to take into consideration and it's a substantial raise, but after two calls it's not all that big and I'd imagine he'd want to make it bigger with a draw trying to get folds?

If your plan was to continue with the hand, calling with two to act behind you who've already called your flop bet seems pretty gross and you'll be lost, or are you keen to 3betting this flop with TPTK?

Well given you have the Ah and two other people called I would think it less likely he has a draw here.

I'd probably just fold and honestly if sb just called the flop, I probably wouldn't bet any turn into 3 other players.

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You didn't really give us much in the way of player description and competency level.

But you said SB has tons of draws in his range and is loose and action.

So, I could see him raising you here with a bunch of combo draws: Pair + SD, Pair + FD, FD + SD.

Given that he c/r such a huge amount, we need to decide if we are comfortable playing for stacks vs this villain.

Since you said V is loose and action, I call here with the intent to call 100% of his turn shoves since he will be shoving turn with 100% of his range.

Basically, against loose action players in spots like these, it's just best to regard this as a high variance +EV spot. He will show up with random 2p and straights and even sets on occasion, but overall, his TOTAL range has so many draws in it that we are ahead and can play for stacks.

just sucks to get it in for stacks with just TPTK but against loose action players, we more or less need to be willing to since their ranges are so wide.

EDIT: Forgot about the other players in the hand that merely called our $90 bet. I definitely want to iso against the loose action player so we can go ahead and just shove over the top of his raise. The only reason I didn't initially advocate this was because if we flat in position we keep his range wider and force him to shove into us on turn. However, if we just call, we price in other villains and our equity isn't strong enough to want to make this multiway. So, we can just go ahead and shove OTT and play for stacks.

Well, we pick up another 3% or so of equity *shrug* but in the case of our loose action villain, it doesn't impact us all that much since his range will be very draw heavy and he can show up will all kinds of SCs and SGs.

It makes me more worried about the other players but you didn't give us player descriptions on them. There are some players (passive ABCs and OMCs) who like to slow play sets on these boards waiting for non-heart turns before they blast the pot. So us having the A does reduce the # of FDs they can have between the two and it makes me a bit more wary that one of them may have flopped monster. But without player descriptions I can't be sure.

Wow - I'm usually 100% behind what dgi says - but not here ^^^^

SB checks
UTG (us) bets
MP calls
BU calls
THEN... SB check/raises!

SB is check/raising into OP and 2 players who just called off $90 like they were ordering a Coors Light... and OP wants to know what he should do?
Unless SB is a maniac, I can't imagine him doing this with anything less than 2 pair. But a straight is much more likely.
He's probably check/raising because he doesn't have any hearts and wants to take it down right there.
I've watched a lot of "Live at the Bike" broadcasts, and I admit - the play there is often bad and spewy. But a huge check/raise on a board like this is rarely a "play" against multiple callers.
I'd save the 310, fold and pick a better spot.

I meant if its unlikely he has a nutfd and his range shifted to twopairs+ ?

Is it nitty to fold this pre UTG? Terrible positioning with really isn't that strong a hand

Opening AJo utg full ring at a loose/aggressive table is not going to be very +EV. Its not bad either, though.

Also, dgi, if you think his range is straights, sets, 2p, and draws... We're behind that range if he gets to see two cards. He also won't have as many draws as you think because he cant have the NFD and he likely won't do this with just a gutter + pair.

He either has a very strong draw or a hand that crushes us. We're behind that range, and while there is quite a bit of dead money, we're crushed so often and slightly ahead then rest of the time tjat this should just be folded.

Edit: The Jack being a heart also eliminates a ton of pair+FD

Its a clear fold

Wow, a clear consensus against DGI. Usually not a good idea, but i'm on board with the masses here. If his range and tendencies consists of 50% draws, 45% hands that we are a big dog to, and 5% wtf hands, i'm pretty sure putting more money in here is -EV. From my inaccurate and willy nilly number crunching, 95% of the time we are slightly ahead, way behind AT BEST and way behind at worst.

Having the Ah adds a bit of equity but still makes this worse for us imo since it removes a lot of draw combos from his range which will hold more weight than the added equity.

fold

Not to backtrack my position, but my position does change based on descriptions of other players.

If we can "ignore" the other players for a second and focus on SB, OP said SB is loose / action player. Routinely folding to loose / action players whenever they check/raise you on a wet board is going to be leaving tons of money on the table.

Their ranges are going to be way wider than you think in spots like this. Sure, against typical competent villains I'm with you, snap fold all day long...

but against loose / action players... These are the type of high variance +EV spots that loose action players can't resist.

I dunno, perhaps we have different definitions of "loose action players"

the other component to all this is sizing tells and other types of descriptions that should help us key in on what we should do. Not to make excuses, but its paying attention to those details which is crucial to spots like this and knowing when we should feel comfortable stacking off with just TPTK for 100bb.

I mean, sure, its nice to have top set vs loose action players but that isn't always going to happen and more often than not it will be our ability to dissect these types of spots which will determine if we have epic 2, 4, or even 6+ BI nights

Sure, in a vacuum we get c/r blasted on a board like this we can fold vs most players...

so the question becomes, do we want to fold here vs a "loose action" player. And if the answer is yes, the next question is, "well, who would we call in this spot?" Is the answer "No one???"

Hmmmmm....

I went back and did some stoving...

Giving V a range of sets, draws, straights, 2p.... equity works out to around 50%, +/- 5% depending on how loose or tight we want to be with V's range.

Given we have $90 vested and are looking at playing for stacks for $1100... we can fold or put another way, folding is not terrible by any stretch.

And to be fair, minus the information I'd need to be comfortable playing for stacks here, I can get behind a fold.

I got a little bit of myopia based on the OP description that V is "loose and action". These are the type of players that are my bread and butter and that I relentlessly go after.

Ultimately, it comes down to "how loose" and "how actiony" is this player.

The only point I'd like to make is that you'd be amazed how wide these types of players' ranges are in these spots.

This is kinda a paradox though... if you are routinely folding to these sorts of players in spots like these then I guess you WOULDN'T know how wide their ranges are since you don't call them down .

In any event, those are my thoughts. Based on the lack of info, folding isn't terrible and the right course of action I suppose

The check raise into 3 players is just way too strong and I think it has to be a fold

UNLESS

Is the player good enough to realise that you will fold most holdings in this spot
Is it possible that he makes this play with TT or 99 with a heart

You say he is a loose action player if we can also add suicidal tendencies we may just find a call

I know a lot of you will be reading this and shaking your heads but I have been known to make similar moves
With TT or 99 we may be drawing thin but we are far from dead and if we figure that a high % of the time the big check raise will get 3 folds it may be a shot worth taking

If villain had TT for example and he puts you on top pair top kicker he knows that

A) You cant call
B) If you do call he can hit two tens or four nines and possible runner runner flush (although not in this case)
c) With top top YOU CANT CALL

Good luck at the tables

Did you stove just the action player?
Or the other 2 behind OP who called off the $90 flop bet?
I find when you're at a table with an "actiony" player, most of the table adjusts and tries to trap him.... thereby trapping you, who's trying to trap him.

Even if by some strange anomaly the action player - with the WORST position - is making a squeeze play with just a draw... there's nothing to say that our AJ is any good vs. the other two.

HU (heads up) - I'd be more inclined to agree with your assessment. In a MULTI-WAY pot... I'm not putting in another chip until I've got definitive proof that Mr. Action Player makes this move with air.

yeah I only stoved him. Hard to stove the others without player descriptions or profiles of them.

true, but the question is, if these players had sets would they check flop "hoping" action player is going to go for a check/raise? And if action player is going to go for a c/r then what range is he doing that with? Your logic here is sorta contradicting.

On one hand you assume action player is so "actiony" that he will c/r with a super wide range (which is the only logic that enables the "other" players to slow play monster hands on flops) but then on the other hand you insist of giving the action player a nutted range vs our AJ???

I want to stop right here. We must have seriously different definitions of what an action player is. WIth my definition, action players make this move ALL THE TIME from any position with a draw. Hence why they are called action players. I think this is a mistake of the lexicon of LLSNL, too often people throw around terms like LAG, TAG, nit, etc without truly understanding what they mean. And I feel this is the case here. OP describes villain as "loose" and "action" and despite those descriptions you insist of thinking of V here as being semi-nutted and crushing our AJ other than "some anomaly" happening in which in some super rare instance our AJ is ahead.

I submit that vs a "Loose" and "action" player our AJ has plenty of equity. And that is more or less the core logic behind my post.

Here is the thing. I see players make what I call the "multi-way" mistake all the time. There will be action, then there will be calls, then there will be a raise, and the person who is left to act is "worried" about the players that previously only called. Typically, if those players had a real hand they would be raising would they not?

Which goes back to the incomplete information we had vs the other villain types. If those villains are passive tight players then yeah, i'm worried. If those players are typical rec-fish then I'm less worried. If they are nits, then I'm worried again, if they are stations I'm less worried.

Anyways, I think when you think through everything this isn't so cut and dry and is more in that gray area of high variance +EV.

Since the $400 c/r is such a big raise, we can probably flat it and the raise is big enough to fold out most of the other villains' ranges meaning that if they likewise flat then yeah we are screwed. But based on OP, I really do want to play vs this villain in this spot

however, barring descriptions of the other villains, and the fact we are only $90 vested, I can get behind a fold.