I played short-stacked recently (the minimum $80 in a 1-2 game) because I wanted ....

1) to improve my play for tournaments where you have 40bb for long periods of time
2) just to have a bit of fun by playing a different stack size to my normal 80-100bb

There were two interesting hands that were a bit similar.


In both hands:
I limped UTG with JJ and 22.
There was a raise to $12-15 from the CO and a call from the BTN (both villains deep stacked)
I now shoved for my $80

1) With the JJ , the raiser (to $15) was a middle-aged LAG, likely to be raising light and there was a decent chance of him calling my shove pretty light.

2) With the 22, the raiser (to $12) was a 28 year old, sensible player.

In both hands the third player was a typical weak player, almost certainly just calling with all kinds of weak speculative hands.

Any thoughts on these two spots?

Results later

Exactly how I'd play JJ in that spot.

I'd fold small pairs playing this short in EP. As played, we're either flipping (admittedly with decent dead money) or destroyed, and at this very small stack depth we have very little FE (which we absolutely need in order to sometimes fold out bigger pairs). So I would have dumped it.

GcluelessNLnoobG

A bit more info:

My image with the LAG is tight (almost nitty). I’ve played with him a lot. He likes to gamble and loves to beat my strong hands with his weak hands.

With the tight 28 year old, I’d only played with him for an hour, but my image is tight/sensible. I had a slight tell that he wasn’t super strong: he’d raised very casually (whereas players with AA/KK/QQ will usually look a lot more serious/focussed)

I don't think open limping is a solid play in tournaments with 40BB. In a cash game I like your JJ play but I would just fold 22 OOP.

The JJ seems a straightforward spot to GII here, as GG suggested.

A standard 3 bet would mean me getting about half my stack in, and shoving seems much better than that, esp when V is likely to call my shove but fold a flop that he doesn’t connect with.

SPOILER




Result: LAG tanked for 15 seconds and called, board ran out with one overcard (a K I think) and I won, he didn’t show.

With the 22 hand....

Yes, normally I’d fold this pre when only 40bb deep. (Too shallow to set mine if there’s a standard raise pre.)

But when the LP 28 year old guy casually raised and the other guy called I felt it was really pretty unlikely either of them had a pair (basically because, crudely, at the table I said to myself that getting a pair is a 16:1 shot). I felt my shove would look very strong and they’d probably fold 33-77 themselves (fearing they’d either be crushed by my higher pair or flipping). So I shoved.

Later on, I thought this through a little more with some numbers...

The LP 28 year old is probably raising 40-50% of his hands here. Assuming any pair appears in this range, it is about a 7:1 shot for him to have a pair. Because my tell is saying he probably doesn’t have JJ+, I can discount the chances of him having a pai quite a lot. If he folds 33-88 then we might be left with only 88-TT that call me! Anyway, a very rough crunching of all those factors means I think I can put the chances of him having a pair that he plays on with, at closer to the original 16:1 than the 7:1.

The same rough logic can be applied to the 3rd player who flatted the original raise. He might have a top 40-50% of hands too, but he’d almost certainly have 3 bet with JJ+, and he might not set mine with a small pair in a likely HU spot, and even if he has 33-77 then he likely folds those to my shove for same reasons as above.

Results later, but I did show my hand. A couple of regs were surprised at my play. So the next time I make this play, I’ll probably turn up with the expected 99+/AK/AQ as my cover has been blown!

6x isolating a short stacked limper from the CO with 40-50% of hands is maniacal play, not the moves of a "sensible player."

Good point that 40-50% is on the high side.

Maybe about 25% of hands is a good RFI range for a sensible CO.

However this guy, like a lot of good young players with a bit of arrogance in their play, is higher than the typical, maybe he is 35% here. (‘Sensible’ was a bit misleading apologies)

That does shorten the chances of him having a pair... but I think a lot of my logic still applies.

Regarding FE - I think (after subtracting the rake, and assuming the third player folds) the V needs about 41% equity to call. I think he could easily think he is crushed/dominated a lot of the time and think he has about 30-37% against my perceived range

Result with the 22 hand

CO tanked for 15 seconds and called. Weak player on BTN called.

Board ran out A8AQ3 and I won

Weak player showed Ks7s

CO didn’t show but said he had a similar hand to the weak player.

This made me think of another good feature of my all in here: quite often both Villains can have suited broadways and are often duplicating one of their cards, especially Aces and Kings.

Anyway this play was very unusual for me but I might make it again especially if the original raiser has been open raising a lot, and if I’m getting a non-strength tell from him, and if I have a tight image

Really think you're being results oriented here with 22.

FWIW, K7s is pretty much 50/50 vs a hand as weak as 22. When we ship, we actually want those hands hogging up that much equity to fold, but obviously we don't have any FE this short versus villains this loose. So pretty much all you do is get yourself into some flip situations half the time, and the other half of the time you get it in as a 4:1 dog vs a bigger overpair, and you never get it in as a good favourite. This ain't gonna turn out good long term.

Whereas with the JJ hand you mostly get it in anywhere from crushing to very good to flipping at worse, and almost never very badly.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Yeah with the 22 I’ve always avoided putting in a lot of chips pre-flop for those reasons (flipping or crushed).

But I was just looking to push the boundaries a bit here, as I’m thinking the value of the dead money is quite significant.

With villains that I’ve played with a lot, who will really respect my shove (I’m a tight player), I’ll have big FE, and I can see some value in making the play. (It might be marginal though)

I didn’t really know these villains, so it was a bit unclear. I don’t really mind being in a 49-51 flop versus Ks7s as the dead money makes it +EV. I guess my main worry is if this guy is loose enough to call with Ks7s then he’s loose enough to call with 55.

(Also, a minor point, there could be some meta-game benefit in me shoving with 22 in that I’ll get more action later when shoving with JJ+)

Regarding metagame, you'll get more than enough action for your JJ+ if you simply show up with enough AK/AQ (which you will).

GmuchratherhaveAK/AQthan22hereG