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Old 05-08-2013, 04:45 PM   #26
JimmyVee
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Re: Getting OWNED by postflop passivity

The tone of you guys sent me back to see if I pissed people off equally by trying to make interesting non-obvious points back in the day on the limit forums. Looks like yeah probably:

http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/show...fpart=all&vc=1

Still working on dealing with ranges rather than hands after all these years...
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Old 05-08-2013, 04:45 PM   #27
cAmmAndo
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Originally Posted by JimmyVee View Post

Second hand: very different villain, speaks limited English, pretty old, a true regular and capable of caginess. ***Fairly tight***. Makes it $10 second to act and ***I call on the button to set-mine**** with 4 4.

Flop Q26 . Villain checks. I bet $15, Villain calls. God, I'm an idiot.

Turn T . ($50 in pot.) Check, I check behind.

River A . Villain checks. Hero bets $50.


Flame away.
So we call to set mine OK. We whiff. Now we get "clever". Just don't run multi street bluffs with under pairs and your win rate will improve PERIOD.

Nothing wrong with the occasional stab but turning a $10 speculation into a $100 bluff on a regular basis is a leak.
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Old 05-08-2013, 04:45 PM   #28
wj94
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Re: Getting OWNED by postflop passivity

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Originally Posted by JimmyVee View Post
But I thought the call in hand two was particularly remarkable and impressive, and wonder if anyone had insights.
Why is the call atrocious? Just because there are two overcards? There is $50 in the pot and you bet the pot. Your hand is polarized to straights and flushes or air. If you had a flush draw on turn you would not have checked it back. If you had Qx on the turn you would not have checked it back. If you had Qxdd you 100% would never check it back. You can't really have JK calling the flop, and you're not checking back JKdd on turn. So what exactly can you have that calls flop and pots the river? Qx is checking back river most of the time with showdown value on a relatively scary board against a PFR when the A hits his raising range. Therefore, easy call with JJ.
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Old 05-08-2013, 04:57 PM   #29
JimmyVee
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Re: Getting OWNED by postflop passivity

Wow, almost none of those things about the turn is true. I am checking back all draws and A high on that turn, especially because (as he knows) I have to fear a QQ or AQ turn checkraise shove.

And as I indicated I do sometimes check back AQ on a fairly dry board, to get value on the river from hands like, I don't know, JJ.

Did you read the action right? I didn't call the flop (nor would I ever), I bet it after he checked. My range is not polarized and an A is VERY possible here. After he checks the river my decent A and especially my flush should often overbet pot to look bluffy.
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Old 05-08-2013, 04:57 PM   #30
JimmyVee
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Re: Getting OWNED by postflop passivity

I didn't say atrocious, I said "remarkable and impressive." That's like the opposite of atrocious.
Criminy!
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Old 05-08-2013, 04:58 PM   #31
JimmyVee
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Re: Getting OWNED by postflop passivity

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Originally Posted by cAmmAndo View Post
Nothing wrong with the occasional stab but turning a $10 speculation into a $100 bluff on a regular basis is a leak.
This.
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Old 05-08-2013, 05:02 PM   #32
JimmyVee
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Re: Getting OWNED by postflop passivity

Oh, forgot to add that Villain in hand two has $400. Hence the set-mining.
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Old 05-08-2013, 05:07 PM   #33
wj94
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Re: Getting OWNED by postflop passivity

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Wow, almost none of those things about the turn is true. I am checking back all draws and A high on that turn, especially because (as he knows) I have to fear a QQ or AQ turn checkraise shove.

And as I indicated I do sometimes check back AQ on a fairly dry board, to get value on the river from hands like, I don't know, JJ.

Did you read the action right? I didn't call the flop (nor would I ever), I bet it after he checked. My range is not polarized and an A is VERY possible here. After he checks the river my decent A and especially my flush should often overbet pot to look bluffy.
Whether you bet $15 or called $15 is pretty much the same thing on that flop. All underpairs are usually going to bet that flop when checked to so they can just take it down when PFR whiffs and gives up.

Your range is still polarized. Would you normally pot top pair on the river or would you just value bet like $20? Checking back the turn on such a small pot with Qx or big draws is pretty terrible too. You really think V is c/r shoving $360 into a ~$50 pot? If you are checking back the turn with AQ on that turn you are missing a ton of value.
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Old 05-08-2013, 05:13 PM   #34
JimmyVee
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Re: Getting OWNED by postflop passivity

no, sorry, not a shove, just a big c-r.

I would often pot top pair on the river when checked to against typical opponents. But I would usually bet smaller for value against this particular guy, who usually doesn't show down without the goods. —Boy did he have my number yesterday though.
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Old 05-08-2013, 05:20 PM   #35
wj94
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Re: Getting OWNED by postflop passivity

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no, sorry, not a shove, just a big c-r.

I would often pot top pair on the river when checked to against typical opponents. But I would usually bet smaller for value against this particular guy, who usually doesn't show down without the goods. —Boy did he have my number yesterday though.
Then why did you pot the river? Just give up, not enough in the pot to make a PSB bluff worth it.
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Old 05-08-2013, 05:21 PM   #36
Buster65
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Re: Getting OWNED by postflop passivity

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Point was they weren't updating their Level Two, which I assumed in my Level Three that they would do. They made a plan and stuck to it, whereas in their shoes I would have leveled myself into folding both hands on the river.
Maybe they are just playing the player?

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I thought the interesting thing here was opponents' play. How many of us are capable of making these exact checks and river calls? Is this passivity a gear you possess?
I absolutely have this gear vs a player I know can 2 and 3 barrel light. As you said, taking control of this hand against you allows you to play perfectly.
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Old 05-08-2013, 06:00 PM   #37
TripleH68
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Re: Getting OWNED by postflop passivity

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Originally Posted by JimmyVee View Post
Second hand: very different villain, speaks limited English, pretty old, a true regular and capable of caginess. Fairly tight. Makes it $10 second to act and I call on the button to set-mine with 4 4.

Flop Q26 . Villain checks. I bet $15, Villain calls. God, I'm an idiot.
Turn T . ($50 in pot.) Check, I check behind.

River A . Villain checks. Hero bets $50.


Flame away.
Why do you think you are an idiot on this flop? You took a stab by betting 75% of the pot. Is this what you would bet if you called with QJ or QT? Or a set? If so then fine. Note that villain should be including all pocket pairs in your range including the 44 you hold.

What range do you assign villain when he calls? It is an interesting play to raise preflop, then check/call a 75% pot bet on the flop.

On the turn when you fail to bet - your flop bet looks like you took a stab at the pot and gave up.

On the river why should villain bet? You can't call anything as his range is strong on this board. So he checks and consider calling your bet.

This really is a simple hand.
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Old 05-08-2013, 06:13 PM   #38
JimmyVee
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Re: Getting OWNED by postflop passivity

Knowing my image, I assigned Villain 88-JJ or AT+ when he called the flop, with the possibility that he was slowplaying QQ. I knew it was likely he would gladly trap me with a slightly better hand or call along relatively cheaply with good overcards. When he checked the turn I eliminated KQ for sure.

I thought 75% was a good bet, but if I'm betting for value I never show up here with less than QK after cold-calling preflop.

I did give up on the turn, but on the river I thought he would put out a blocker bet with an A. Since he didn't I thought it would be silly to check and see 88. So instead I did an expensive silly thing, and he beat me like a drum.
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Old 05-08-2013, 06:29 PM   #39
bvanlaanen45
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First of all its not a profitable play to bluff calling stations. Second, the bet check bet line looks super bluffy everytime it's done so that line needs to stop IMO.

For hand 1 when he tosses in 2 red chops I assume that's $10 and you of raised to $25?? Is that right? I would much prefer a raise to about $40, $25 seems way to weak and just a play to attack Vs mistake
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Old 05-08-2013, 06:42 PM   #40
ggnoobs
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Re: Getting OWNED by postflop passivity

hand 1: its standard to be cautious on these boards since it's so hard to continue if your opponent plays back at you. but if you do elect to bet and your opponent only flat calls, he never has anything good, so bet the turn and river

hand 2: a case can be made for betting or checking the flop. but if you bet you need to again follow through. 1/2 to 2/3rds pot this turn, and bet big or jam the river

don't bluff so much you get called nonstop, but when you do decide to bluff, don't be afraid to 3 barrel to get folds on these runouts

put another way, you stated you use bet check bet as a line to get thin value with tpgk. in other words this line gets you calls. why on earth would you then try to use it to get folds? you're leveling yourself

Last edited by ggnoobs; 05-08-2013 at 06:50 PM.
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Old 05-08-2013, 08:43 PM   #41
dgiharris
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Re: Getting OWNED by postflop passivity

Grunch

This seems like you are drunk off of FPS juice and just clicking buttons.
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Old 05-08-2013, 11:07 PM   #42
Sief
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Re: Getting OWNED by postflop passivity

have you ever heard of the suicide bluff??

thats why they r calling
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Old 05-09-2013, 12:31 AM   #43
patchohare
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Re: Getting OWNED by postflop passivity

I think the turn check in both hands is the mistake.

If your going to bluff, then bluff. You must put max pressure on and continue the story.

In hand one you 3 bet pre, cbet, then check a 7 high board? bet/fold the turn.

hand 2 you must bet the turn. he's calling the flop with virtually any pocket pair.

If your not going to fire two barrels, it's not worth it to raise and bet the flop. In both cases your setting yourself up to get called light.

that's why it works when you take this line with tptk. I understand balancing, but like in hand one where you have no show down value, you gotta make it more difficult for villain to call.

when your opponents are likely weak, don't get cute, apply pressure to their weak one pair hands.
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Old 05-09-2013, 01:34 AM   #44
venice10
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Re: Getting OWNED by postflop passivity

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Originally Posted by dgiharris View Post
Grunch

This seems like you are drunk off of FPS juice and just clicking buttons.
Pretty much this. You rep nothing in either hand.
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