Played this hand at Red Rock last night against a friend of mine who I've played a lot of hours with. A couple of my friends that are solid players disagreed with my turn play so let's see what 2+2 says:

Hero (~$850) in BB: Mid-20's reg, V knows I'm a solid winner. He knows I raise a lot of hands pre and cbet most flops when in position and favorable boards when OOP.

V (~$500) in SB: Mid-30's reg and solid winner, capable of making moves without big hands and seen him do it with air many times in both 1/2 and 2/5. Wide opening and light 3b range from late position, pretty tight range from EP. Earlier 3bet an $8 open to $26 after one call with T5s. The original PFR called and flop came 347cc, PFR checked V pots it, PFR calls. Turn 2x, check/check, river 6x, PFR checks V bets 100, PFR calls, straight is obviously good.

Hero dealt QQ

Two people limp, V raises to $16 in SB. Hero flats, both limpers fold.

Flop ($38): T-6-4 rainbow

V leads for $30, hero calls.

Turn ($98): J

Board is still rainbow. V leads for $90. Hero?

I feel your hand is really underrepped here and the board doesn't hit your BB calling range (larger aces, etc). I would think most people would 3 bet QQ here, but if you know opponent is gonna fire barrels and are willing to call down, flatting is a great move.

V seems to like nearly betting pot, so no betsizing tells there. I think you really should just call down in this spot. No sense raising and blowing him off worse hands. He could easily be doing this with something like AT, AK, KQ (which picks up a straight draw even though there aren't very many combos) or air.

If you get queens and aren't willing to call down an opponent on a safe board while IP who can bluff and fire multiple barrels light, you need to 3bet to take the lead yourself. This is as pretty much the safest board you can imagine so I can't really imagine folding without some sick read. I am really calling down pretty much any river bet that isn't AKJT and even if one of those cards come, I'm definitely not gonna instamuck.

3bet preflop

I probably call turn and fold to a river ship

Why didn't you 3-bet pre? Obviously there are valid possible reasons not to (like if the limpers are absolutely terrible post), but I 3b here more often than not.

Flop is obviously standard.

The turn basically comes down to his SB opening range and double barrel frequency. I assume given that you didn't 3-bet pre his range from the SB is pretty tight. Something like {99+,AJ+,KQ} maybe? Or even tighter than that? Anyway your hand is pretty underrepped in that it he probably expects you to 3-bet QQ most of the time and KK+ all of the time. So while this is a good board for you to slowplay sets, combinatorically you probably have some Tx hand the majority of the time here. Add in the fact that KQ/AQ/AK all picked up some kind of straight draw and AJ might be valuebetting, and he's probably doubling this turn with close to his entire range. Call, even though things could get pretty ugly if he triples a blank river.

grunch: call

it is a tough spot. villain is showing strength by barreling out of position. but i doubt he puts you on QQ's with your preflop flat. i'm not looking to bloat the pot or put us at a weird stack to pot size so i'm just calling here. a little deeper and i'd raise, a little shorter and i'd shove. i'm in call-down mode on this safe board. villain might have a set. if he has 2 pair i'd be surprised.... i guess maybe JT would make sense, but even then you have a good amount of outs and that's just one combo to put in his range.

I didn't 3b pre because 3b a SB's large open from the BB can only be QQ+ and AKs most of the time so it keeps my range wide and invites the limpers into the hand which could both keep V playing straightforward having to lead into 3 people, and gives me better chances to stack someone if I do flop a set. We are also 250bb deep and getting 250bb in with one pair against an 8x SB open is generally a bad idea.

I've seen him limp hands like KQ/AT/22-TT from EP many times and a bit earlier he raised to $16 from SB after a couple limpers and had AA. IMO his PF range with this SB raise is TT+, AQs+, AKo


What's the plan if I call and he barrels another 200 on a bricked river? Or overbet shoves river?

I probably raise to 230, but I'm pretty straightforward. I can see they play to let him hang himself on the river but the problem I always have with that is that if an A or K comes what then - especially if he leads out with a shove? Also, if you just flat his turn bet, and he is as good as you say, then he should be slowing way down. A turn raise by you might get in more than otherwise possible.

It seems that you're advocating a valueraise, which seems misguided to me given that no worse hand will call. However, raising to turn our hand into a bluff is a pretty interesting option that I didn't really consider.

Yeah I agree it's pretty gross, especially with the tighter preflop range you gave. I think you'd have to fold at that point.

If his PFR range is TT+/AQ/AK then you should still 3bet/fold, and I am sure it is wider than that given the other hands you have given. I don't think PF is even close. Like combinatorically the majority of his range is AQ/AK and he probably isn't folding them to a 3bet so get value from them.

If he ships the river and you don't beat any value hands then you fold. It is pretty easy.

just bc you 3b doesn't mean you are committed to getting 250bb in with just one pair.

for instance, you can 3b/f if you are confident he is never 4b light, which is a fair assumption.

you can 3b, bet flop, and pot control turn and either bluff catch river or even fold river if he has zero bluffs in his range by that point in the hand. if he flats your 3b and continues on ragged flops, pot controlling at some point is probably best, since he could easily flat your 3b with KKs+ since he would find a 4b would turn his hand face up.

if you do call pre, then i think you are forced to call flop and turn, river is entirely V dependent. if he is not capable of firing three barrels with worse or air, then you can confidently fold river if he bombs it, especially since JJs and TTs are in his range also.

3bet pre he'll call with worse and raise with better makes the hand pretty easy to play. As played call him down.

Call turn and re-evaluate river. If you're considering folding here, you might as well have folded preflop. The board texture, while not ideal, is still pretty dang good for QQ. Really makes me wish we 3-bet because underrepping your hand is acting as a double-edged sword right now.

board texture is not that good for QQ imo

If it's unlikely the limpers are coming along to the raise, I also just flat preflop in position and basically try to bluffcatch.

I probably just calldown against someone who can be aggro, although this board ain't great for someone raising out of the blinds plus someone who's continuing to barrel the turn. But the turn is an overcard, so I guess it's a good barrel card. What worries me is that he slowed down the last time he was FOS after his flop bet was called, but he did manage to get a free card that time plus turn card wasn't scary in that case.

So yeah, my plan the whole way would just be to call down and let him spew. If we run into JJ/TT/AA/KK, I'm not sure we can get away from it.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Given your read on v's range and your plan for this hand including you're reasoning for flatting PF. This is a call TURN Chk/fold RIVER IMO.

The J was a decent barrel card for v but with your call if you were floating w/ overcards and missed the turn v is looking to get to show down on such a dry board. With your call on the turn its unlikely v is tripple barreling A hi. If AJs was not in his range he has zero value hands we beat.

Call turn to bluff catch his double barrels w/ AK and fold to continued river aggression.

We have about 50% equity against his range OTT. But I believe his river 3 barreling range includes only occasionally AK. If we revise his range on bricked rivers to include only the AKs combos to represent the handful of times he tripple barrels A hi, our equity is 20% and we can't call any meaningful river bet. Can only call "block ish" looking bet or LOL live soul read IMO.

I think he flats a 3b with almost his entire range unless I 3b really small like a min-raise. 4b from the SB just turns his hand face up as AA/KK weighted towards AA being OOP and playing that deep.

If I bet a low flop and he c/r do I just fold? If he donks pot twice on a low flop after I 3b do I just call down? In that case I am playing for stacks.

V is capable of triple barrel bluffing even OOP so if I'm calling turn I think I have to call almost any river bet on bricked river cards, especially an overbet shove that looks bluffy instead of for value.

I don't think V 4b any of his range unless I 3b really small and he thinks I have exactly KK and he has exactly AA.



FWIW, I don't think V double barrels AK/AQ here for PSB's very often against me. Against other players he might but he knows I'm capable ranging and hand reading and if I call turn he puts himself in a pretty bad spot on river.

Ive made nittier folds than folding the turn here but:

If you 3b pf and the flop comes 722 he likley isn't checkraising you light or with SDV.

Fwiw if you 3bet, he calls then donks 722 I'd raise/fold.

I mean your real problem here is that you think you are turning your hand face up against this guy by being aggressive; this, however, has to do with your bluff frequency in other spots.

That being said, its ****ing 1/2 and this isn't phil ivey you are playing.

If I 3b pre and the flop comes 722 I'm going to have a hard time folding since all overpairs are in his range. Raise/folding only works if he 3b the flop instead of flatting. Turn card could obviously change things in a hypothetical scenario but if the board runs out like 7224T do I stack off $500 with QQ there?

3bet bluffing from the BB after a large open from the SB doesn't seem very profitable in the long-run so I pretty much never do that. While my standard play is to 3b QQ+ almost every time pre, I would probably flat all of my QQ/KK/AA hands here. He's not an idiot and knows what a 3b from the BB means after a SB 8x raise. If I 3b his open he probably folds everything but AKs and QQ+ and might even fold AK.

You are giving him way too much credit and should be bluffing him more or just fold PF because you can't play the hand profitably

I mean, versus extreme nits, I've flatted an UTG open with QQ and folded to a flop cbet MW on J22 and he showed down KK but you've already said he isn't a nit. His pf raising range is probably like KJos+/QJs/99+/ATs+ and he is probably continuing with a big chunk of that

Results:

I think if we think Villain's range is as tight as you think it is, a flop raise is mandatory. Yes, it drives out weak limpers, but I don't know what you expected on the turn when you called the flop. You haven't narrowed his range at all. I make it $80 on the flop and bet/fold the turn. This is marginally more expensive but it avoids the risk of a turn mistake like the one you almost made, leading to a probable huge river mistake.

Good fold though.

Grunch. 3bet pre...If you're flatting queens what does your 3b range look like?

Flat turn. If you raise Idk what worse hands he's continuing with.

He seems to love mashing that pot button

I would rather 3b 89s than QQ from the BB after a large open from SB when playing 250bb deep. 150bb or less I would 3b QQ there.

What worse hands call a flop raise? This is another example of "raising to see where you're at" and it seems like a consistent leak of yours.

I think the problem arises from preflop:

When u called the sb raise, two/three scenarios will occur:

1) limpers fold which give u an SPR of 500/34= 14. This ratio is not ideal and will lead to alot of pot commitment issue later on since this hand is likely to flop an overpair later.

2) 1 limper call n SPR = 10. If sb n limper are very loose, this SPR is marginally ok to play with post flop.

3) both limper joined in n u will then have an ok SPR of 8. Depending on the flop, u can commit easily and auto profit from this play.

Given all the three possible scenario, I would prefer to 3 bet preflop and further lower the SPR such that I will have an easier time later in the hand n not face with pot commitment issues. But how much to 3 bet?

Given that both of us are deep stacked, n I won't want to shove all in with QQ preflop and bumped into AA, I would 3bet to about $50, allowing me to fold to a 4bet which always meant KK+ here